Neighbours want to adjust exterior of our property

[leavethewallalone]

We have lived in our house for coming up 8 years now. 2 years ago new people moved in next door just before lockdown. We don't have much to do with them other than saying hi when they moved in and taking in parcels for them but they seem ok.

We live in terraced houses but each house has a single storey bit at the back that is detached. They're a kind of weird shape in how they are built because they are 70 years old, think a kind of wonky L shape. The wall of our extended bit sits very close to the boundary and as a result there is some overhang of soffits. This has always been the case and some of the neighbouring properties are the same.

Last week we had a planning letter come through our door. They plan to extend their little detached bit in both directions up to the boundary (single storey). I'm a bit shocked that they didn't speak to us before putting in planning permission, I know you don't have to but a heads up would have been good.
We popped round just to ask what their plans were, how long they thought the work might take as we both WFH so this would really impact us. It would also means gardens were not secure for a time period and we have children and a dog so this wouldn't be ideal, but is what it is. They talked us through their plans and I pointed out that the work they needed to do would mean altering our property as our exterior is currently in the way of where they want theirs to go. They just said "yes" without anything else. I tried to remain polite and asked why they hadn't spoken to us about this before putting in planning permission as this was not just proposed work to their property, but now ours. They shrugged and said ours shouldn't be built the way it is but they'd cover the cost for us. I pointed out that every property here is like it and if they wanted to extend they probably shouldn't have moved in to a house where there are boundary issues that have been known for 70 years.

We've had some back and forth with them offering nothing in the way of a you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours agreement, and just feel that we should let them do it. I've now said absolutely not.

I've spoken to the old neighbours who we are still in touch with and asked if they ever had any problems with the boundary. They said no but they did have to take out insurance that covered this in case our property ever damaged their garden etc. We have had to do the same because we have the same on the other side so this make sense.

I've gone through the deeds and any paperwork that I have regarding disputes, I even have really old building documents. No issues raised at any point in 70 years of this house being as it is.

AIBU or should neighbours move elsewhere if they're desperate to extend?

The house on the other side of them is empty so I have no idea what they're doing about that side.

I assume it looks something like this

I'd consult a solicitor, OP, rather than read the half-arsed replies you get on here.

I was thinking more two detached shed/coalhole/outside loo buildings adjoining which ndn wants to incorporate theirs to their dwelling by infilling. It is nit clear whether the affected roofline/overhang is from op dwelling or outbuilding.

Ditto as per

Your picture is what I was imagining. That section often used to be the downstairs bathroom back in the old days. Now they get extended to create a lovely big kitchen/sunroom.

Sorry photo attached ^^

I do think the L shape extension is fairly common especially with older terraces.

I agree with many PP it's a party wall agreement that's needed so OP will need to look at getting proper legal advice.

I think if it was an out building OP would have said that from the start.

Also, I read the OP's reference to back scratching as an indication that the neighbour is unwilling to even enter a discussion about agreeing any goodwill reciprocity beyond paying for the overhanging remediation.

I don't think OP actually meant that a new fence would change her mind, more that the neighbour has shown little consideration for the OP, who would be significantly inconvenienced by this work with no discernible benefit.

It just all speaks to a very self-interested neighbour, whereas the OP seemed willing to discuss a compromise or how they might reach a mutually beneficial agreement.

I don't really follow the logistics but a property overhanging another in a terrace is very common, it's called a flying freehold. My loo and shower in the en suite are over next door's entry passage, we also have an insurance against problems.

They want to remove your property from their own boundary and pay to do it and you're complaining?

OP speak to a solicitor. You may be able to claim Adverse Possession depending on documented usage and building date of your extension/outbuilding.
Try to be less confrontational with the neighbour. It may be that the neighbour is under no legal burden to pay to modify the overhanging property. And the worse outcome would be if OP has to pay for the modifications.

The way they went about it? You mean the legal way?

You objecting won’t affect the PP

I think it was ok not to consult you before putting in planning. I think your reaction sounded petulant Tbh. I don't understand why it's nessecery for people to get so stroppy about things. It generally doesn't help.
I can't understand the situation from your description so it's hard to comment if it's unreasonable or not. If your property overhangs theirs then that sounds annoying for them but if you would loose 3ft of roof space then that sounds like they are being very unreasonable.

Sounds like what in England would be called a "flying freehold" involving the soffits and is not the OP's fault - all the houses in the terrace were built this way when they were built 70 odd years ago. So while you might have had to take out insurance in case of damage from that bit of your house that overhangs their garden, you don't actually as some on here are claiming have a "boundary issue"

I'm sure that they technically can apply for planning permission, which may be given (although make sure to object for as many reasons as you can come up, in accordance with your council's planning considerations, especially aesthetics and precedence but also mention impact on you).

But they will need to come to a Party Wall Agreement (at their cost) and you don't need to agree to that.

@leavethewallalone

You took umbrage when you were notified of their planning application because they didn't speak to you first, when they were under no obligation to do so, and everything's gone downhill from there. The line at the discussion that "if they wanted to extend they probably shouldn't have moved in to a house where there are boundary issues that have been known for 70 years" would have got my back up if someone had said that to me. It's nonsense for you to even think neighbours should move elsewhere if they're desperate to extend. You're thinking about an extension yourself - how would you feel if someone suggested that you move instead?

There are considerable benefits to them doing this work at their expense, for you as well as them, so if you're going to question it I suggest to keep to practical things like the garden's security, disturbance while you WFH etc once the legalities have been covered. It's best that you put your irritation at how they initially dealt with this to one side. You and your neighbours didn't have much of a relationship before this, and you're going the right way to creating such a frosty environment that they'll decide to object to or at least be awkward about anything you do in future, related to planning or not.

YABU.

Did you seriously never stop to think that because the property you were buying overhangs someone else's property, that might cause an issue at some point?

They want to build on their own land, they'll pay to make the changes to the part of your property that encroaches on their property, and while it's annoying you must have foreseen this was a risk when you decided to buy your property. It's unfortunate but your neighbours are not being unreasonable in wanting to modify their own property.

A party wall agreement will look at it from both sides and they have to pay for that not you. Tricky as although it’s always been like that, moment building is different and you do encroach on their land.

MimiSunshine · 26/04/2022 08:24
Have they organised a party wall survey / agreement? If it tell them you insist on it.

I would also go on the planning portal and comment that you object to these plans has they encroach on your property and would require work done to your property which you don’t agree to so new plans are required that don’t go up to the boundary.

This. Go on the council's planning portal a.s.a.p. and object to having your property changed without your permission or that you don't want to share a wall with them or whatever reason you like (you're not entitled to a view so can't complain about that, but loss of light, light spillage from proposed new lighting, increased noise from new proposal and their extension being out of keeping with the local buildings are possible factors). It is vital that you find a party wall surveyor (www.ricsfirms.com/glossary/party-walls/) and ask them to come out and inspect. They will then write to the neighbours with a list of their questions and concerns that their surveyor should be able to answer. As they are doing the extension they will pay the fees for both Surveyors although you can both have the same one, but I'd be inclined not to since they haven't wished to involve you in the earlier process.

Good luck

I've spoken to the planning and building regs departments. Both have said that our concerns won't influence the planning decision but would fall under the party wall act which would need to happen after they have got planning permission.

If the planning department say you have no material objection, and from what you’ve said, I tend to agree, then they are correct that the party wall agreement will be your opportunity to influence the changes. Regardless of their planning permission, if the agreement isn’t made, they can’t build. You need a solicitor to advise you of the legal position you are in and to take you through the agreement. It isn’t unusual for someone carrying out building work to pay or agree to do some work for the agreement to be reached.

Sounds like what in England would be called a "flying freehold" involving the soffits and is not the OP's fault - all the houses in the terrace were built this way when they were built 70 odd years ago. So while you might have had to take out insurance in case of damage from that bit of your house that overhangs their garden, you don't actually as some on here are claiming have a "boundary issue"

I've had a read about it and I think this is the case. To clarify (I've been out and checked and also checked neighbouring properties). Every property along here has this bit out back that overhangs the garden on the nearest side by about 1ft of soffits. From what they've described they want to remove this 1ft, plus 2 additional feet, to make way for something they're doing.

I understand what everyone is saying but given that all of the properties within a stones throw have all been like this for 70 years, I think at some point an easement could come in to play? If that is the right term.
I do actually have the docs for when the house was built and everything is as it should be, these details are included in the documentation. They have the same on the other side, affecting their other neighbour.

I read it differently, but maybe that comes from having owned a house where the extensions (neighbours & ours) were attached to our own houses, but not attached to the neighbours! They were built (pre us) with a gap between them of about 2 ft. No idea why?!
single story & not over hanging the neighbours though!

@leavethewallalone

I don't need a diagram. I need photos!!

From what they've described they want to remove this 1ft, plus 2 additional feet, to make way for something they're doing

If the 1ft is over their land, where is the additional 2ft? Will this then overhang your land?

The fence everyone has taken very literally. I do feel slightly affronted as the work that they would like to do directly affects us and I think it's sensible practice to discuss this before we get letters through the door. The fence was an example of the fact that we are very much being put out for absolutely no gain to us, so it was more of a suggestion of "ok you want to do work to our property when this isn't something we would otherwise opt for, and it has never been a problem after 70 years of the property being this way - can anything be done at the same time that will benefit us if we say yes?".

For everyone saying I'm being a CF can I also point out their house does the same on the other side and they do not have any plans to rectify this because it's been that way for 70 years.

If the 1ft is over their land, where is the additional 2ft? Will this then overhang your land?

Yes and it will cut in to our property, the exterior wall itself.

Have asked MN to move to legal as suggested. Lots of duplicate posts on this thread too.