Neighbours want to adjust exterior of our property

[leavethewallalone]

We have lived in our house for coming up 8 years now. 2 years ago new people moved in next door just before lockdown. We don't have much to do with them other than saying hi when they moved in and taking in parcels for them but they seem ok.

We live in terraced houses but each house has a single storey bit at the back that is detached. They're a kind of weird shape in how they are built because they are 70 years old, think a kind of wonky L shape. The wall of our extended bit sits very close to the boundary and as a result there is some overhang of soffits. This has always been the case and some of the neighbouring properties are the same.

Last week we had a planning letter come through our door. They plan to extend their little detached bit in both directions up to the boundary (single storey). I'm a bit shocked that they didn't speak to us before putting in planning permission, I know you don't have to but a heads up would have been good.
We popped round just to ask what their plans were, how long they thought the work might take as we both WFH so this would really impact us. It would also means gardens were not secure for a time period and we have children and a dog so this wouldn't be ideal, but is what it is. They talked us through their plans and I pointed out that the work they needed to do would mean altering our property as our exterior is currently in the way of where they want theirs to go. They just said "yes" without anything else. I tried to remain polite and asked why they hadn't spoken to us about this before putting in planning permission as this was not just proposed work to their property, but now ours. They shrugged and said ours shouldn't be built the way it is but they'd cover the cost for us. I pointed out that every property here is like it and if they wanted to extend they probably shouldn't have moved in to a house where there are boundary issues that have been known for 70 years.

We've had some back and forth with them offering nothing in the way of a you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours agreement, and just feel that we should let them do it. I've now said absolutely not.

I've spoken to the old neighbours who we are still in touch with and asked if they ever had any problems with the boundary. They said no but they did have to take out insurance that covered this in case our property ever damaged their garden etc. We have had to do the same because we have the same on the other side so this make sense.

I've gone through the deeds and any paperwork that I have regarding disputes, I even have really old building documents. No issues raised at any point in 70 years of this house being as it is.

AIBU or should neighbours move elsewhere if they're desperate to extend?

The house on the other side of them is empty so I have no idea what they're doing about that side.

You mention removing an additional 2ft. Is that on your property on still on their property or the boundary? If it is on your property then presumably you can object to that in planning permission stage. I don’t see how they can remover 2ft of property from your property. A diagram would be really helpful

If they want to extend they need to not affect your house. Do you have legal cover on your buildings insurance? I would contact your insurer on this.

Your neighbours can obtain planning permission, but they cannot proceed without your permission and a party wall agreement. Object to their planning application on the grounds their drawings/plans are inaccurate and send the council planning dept photos and a copy of your title docs showing clearly what the situation is.

So they want to take away not only the overhanging bit but a chunk that is indisputably your property and on your land? Now that really IS the height of cheeky-fuckery.

It is fine for OP to have the extension because it has been there for 70 years and she has a right to it.

What you have missed, however, is that the neighbours not only want to knock down the bit that OP has every right to, they actually want to build their extension so that it extends onto OP's property. They really have no chance if they can't get OP to agree to a party wall agreement.

Look OP

make your complaint

and that will tell you whether or not you are being unreasonable

either way… keep it cordial because let’s face it… you live practically on top of each other!

I think a lot of people are trying to answer this when they don’t have a legal basis or understanding to do so. Flying freehold is a very complex area of law, and it is not assured that as it’s stood for 70 years rhe op now owns the space her building occupies above their land. It’s really not.

clearly if they wish to c9me into her land that’s very different and will be a no. But if they want to remove her property from the space above their land then its not a simple yes or no answer and shouting about which one is a cheeky fucker isn’t going to change that fact.

If the parties can’t agree, and clearly they can’t, then both will need to take legal advice.

the op shouldn’t have said no. What she should have done is said do not proceed till I take legal advice, because there is a chance here she will be told she needs to legally remove her property from their space, irrelevant of the fact it’s been there seventy years. So getting them to pay for it would have been good. Howver she should have told them at no stage can they come into the space above her land,

or, as she was willing to permit it in return for a new fence, she could have just said sure you can do it but I want a grand or whatever in return. Could have been cheaper for all of them.🤷‍♀️

Yes definitely keep it simple and definitely don't agree on that basis. Imagine they had offered to replace your fence and then did so with poor quality or workmanship, meanwhile you have let them encroach your land with their brand new extension.

From experience, all emotions need to be put aside for building works and you consider your property and the long term impact on it when agreeing and disputing any aspect.

It is fine for OP to have the extension because it has been there for 70 years and she has a right to it.

i mean this politely but are you qualified in landlaw and also flying freeholds and are giving a professional opinion or are you just guessing?

What specifically is your objection? Building noise during the day isn’t ideal but it isn’t unreasonable. The garden thing - surely working with them you could come up with a solution? What does ‘scratching your back’ look like?

I don’t see a problem other than they didn’t run it past you, but if all you’ve had contact with them is hello etc then why would they? They’re doing it properly with pp.

I think this is a very short-sighted and unwise strategy with your new neighbours. Bugger all chance of you being friends now, and worst case things will escalate and you’ll have a lovely neighbour situation to sell your house with.. They’ve offered to pay, it’ll all be sorted.

This is all correct. I found this hard to believe at first but husband works in this area. Planning permission is nothing to do with whether you are legally entitled to build on the land concerned.

Consult the solicitor who acted on your behalf when you purchased the property.

Commence proceedings to establish ownership of the space occupied by your existing building.

Object to the planning on the basis that the neighbour does not own the space that they wish to build in due to the pre existence of your property occupying this space.

Tell your neighbour that you could avoid all of this if they re do the plans leaving out any elements that plan the destruction of your property in the process.

What a mess.. Good luck!!

Lawyer here. Not a property lawyer (I do divorces) but I have an amateur interest in this kind of stuff.

OP - you will have an easement so that the overhang can remain in place and must not be disturbed by your neighbours. They might have to serve a Party Wall Act notice (see here www.gov.uk/party-walls-building-works/work-tell-your-neighbour-about). If they do, make sure you stipulate that you must must have your own surveyor (they have to pay). They cannot, under the PWA, interfere with your overhang.

Object to the planning on the basis that the neighbour does not own the space that they wish to build in due to the pre existence of your property occupying this space.

Not a planning issue that will be considered in decision.

We popped round just to ask what their plans

Did you give them prior notice before you “popped around”?

or did commit the ULTIMATE mumsnet faux pas?!

I reckon the fact they were so relaxed and nonchalant when you came by and “shrugged” when you mentioned your property

means they’ve been explicitly advised by legal bod already that there won’t be any problem with what they’re doing

Re the empty property the other side… how come? Waiting to be let or sold?

If all else fails, OP, you could glue yourself to your overhang like the Extinction Rebellion protesters 😂

*Did you give them prior notice before you “popped around”?

or did commit the ULTIMATE mumsnet faux pas?!*

I text them first to make sure it was convenient and if they wouldn't mind us asking about it.

Re the empty property the other side… how come? Waiting to be let or sold?

Elderly homeowner, now gone in to a care home.

I have seen terraced houses built in a certain area They were built as council properties and I presume at the time it wasn’t ever thought of that the houses would ever be sold to individual residents who would then have extensions.

The gardens don’t match the houses.
A bit difficult to explain if you haven’t seen it and you think something has gone very wrong but they were indeed built like that.

I.E when you stand in the back garden and look at the boundary fences of a normal terrace house the fences/boundaries will meet the wall at the point of the dividing wall between the houses on either side.
In these properties the fence/boundary “dog leg”50 cm past the divide between the two houses so it looks like you have encroached into your neighbours property on the left hand side by 50cm but then on the right hand side the fence/boundary is 50cm over from your dividing wall.
The house I looked at, the neighbour on the right hand side had an extension which was built across the dividing wall by the neighbours on the right hand side so the neighbours extension was built into this houses back wall

Maybe not to the extent of 50 cm but is this the type of thing you mean.

The front gardens were perfectly in line but the back gardens by the drawings on the deeds were at a dog leg to the properties.

Are the neighbours trying to bring the properties “in line” when they were never meant to be or bring the 70 year old extension in line.
If the former then I would refer to the deeds. You can’t build on someone else’s land for your own purposes without agreement from the owner. You can apply for planning and you might get planning but building is another matter. If the latter then it comes down to how long this has been in place

Over 20 years and you have what is called prescriptive rights (Think that is the term)
I don’t think they can touch anything and definitely not for a £200 fence repair

One of my concerns would be that it is fine if they are planning to use your party wall even if you are in agreement but given your extension was built 70 years ago and will have shallower foundations than there extension then the “movement” of the houses won’t be in sync and one or both houses could end up with cracking

I used to live in an area that had really old cottages that didn’t have any foundations. People would dig down and pour in concrete for their extension as per planning regulations then a few years down the line the house movement which wouldn’t have produced any signs because it is minute and it goes one way in summer and back again in winter ends up fighting the immovable extension and big cracks appear.

Op - remember to see if you have legal insurance with your house insurance - they might be able to provide you with immediate free legal advice and provide you with an initial letter to send to your neighbors (and cc the planning office) to make it clear that you don't agree with their proposed works, that as a minimum you do not agree to them altering anything on your property within your boundary and that you are taking legal advice regarding the overhanging area, so will update on that shortly, but that was a minimum you do expect them to be paying for a surveyor of your choice for the party wall agreement, as legislation days they must. Then obviously use all their advice to help you going forward!

I'm wondering if they have moved in relatively recently and have liked having their extra bit of overhang, so had one of those mad conversations about how they could just make their home symmetrical and claim some overhang from you... But instead of seeing that it's a crazy idea, they have been stewing on it and convinced themselves that it's perfectly reasonable to demand some square footage from their neighbours...

I would also try to track down the other neighbour and explain what is going on. Maybe see if they would be amenable to sending an email to the neighbours to say that they have been inspired by them and as such they are also planning on taking a chunk out of their overhang to incorporate into their own property. Neighbour wouldn't actually need to go through with it, but just being threatened with it might be enough to make them realise how unreasonable they are being if they don't want it to happen to them...

The thing about being able to get planning permission for land you don't own is something that has been long around - I think there are some good reasons for it, eg so purchasers can see if they would get permission before needing to buy land that they might not otherwise - but I remember years ago, a woman was horrified to discover that Tesco had put in for and got planning permission for a supermarket that would have involved her knocking her house down - she liked where she lived and didn't want to move or sell up or be forced to sell up. So she put in for planning permission to put up property in the garden of the house owned and lived in by the head of Tesco at the time... When he had a hairy blue fit, she responded with a 'now you know how I feel, I don't want to be moved either' it helped to get her point of view heard and I seem to remember it got worked out ok in the end. But it always seemed an interesting way to fight the predicament that she found herself in!

Ah
you have got probate on the horizon on the other side.

double whammy!

If it was me, I would get advice on how to oppose this more effectively. Speak to a local councillor who is not on the planning committee and ask them to advise - this would set a concerning precedent for all houses of this type.

I do not see how they can meddle with you house without damaging the character of the terrace - and that is something that can be protected.

Are there many houses like this, are they considered desirable or undesirable?

It sounds batshit to me if this is how they were built originally.

Are you able to post a pic of the piece they want to remove that doesn't reveal where you are? Don't worry if you don't want to, I understand.

No. Yet again. It isn't a boundary dispute, everybody knows where the boundary is, and OP will not be losing any part of her house.

You need to read OP's posts thoroughly, @SamphirethePogoingStickerist . She would be losing part of her house if this went ahead because the neighbours intend part of the extension to be fixed into her roof space.

???? Why do that? Why cut off part of the post to make it say something different? Had you read my posts thoroughly you probably wouldn't have bothered tsk tsking me!

NN cannot do anything without a party wall agreement. If OP gets advice then she won't be losing anything.

Why would OP need an insurance policy for something that has been established for 70 years? What solicitor would advise a house purchaser to take out an insurance policy on the offchance that their neighbour will decide he's entitled to build on the purchaser's property?

You need proper legal advice.

My aunt owned a house with a flying freehold. It was complicated but they are less unusual than you might think. Certainly the owner of the land underneath your property does not have any rights over any part of your property - it's not like an encroaching hedge, it almost certainly has the legal right to be there.

Be very careful about them doing anything to your property. I would get a solicitor to send them a letter saying that you absolutely do not agree to anything being attached to, or removed from, your property, either temporarily or permanently. They can deny they ever received the 'formal' letter you sent. Money spent on doing it through a solicitor could save you a fortune in the long run. You may need to keep the possibility of taking out an injunction against them touching your property at the back of your mind.

Certainly ignore all the posters claiming that your property 'encroaches' over their boundary or such like, and thus gives your neighbours any rights over it. If very likely doesn't.