Neighbours want to adjust exterior of our property

[leavethewallalone]

We have lived in our house for coming up 8 years now. 2 years ago new people moved in next door just before lockdown. We don't have much to do with them other than saying hi when they moved in and taking in parcels for them but they seem ok.

We live in terraced houses but each house has a single storey bit at the back that is detached. They're a kind of weird shape in how they are built because they are 70 years old, think a kind of wonky L shape. The wall of our extended bit sits very close to the boundary and as a result there is some overhang of soffits. This has always been the case and some of the neighbouring properties are the same.

Last week we had a planning letter come through our door. They plan to extend their little detached bit in both directions up to the boundary (single storey). I'm a bit shocked that they didn't speak to us before putting in planning permission, I know you don't have to but a heads up would have been good.
We popped round just to ask what their plans were, how long they thought the work might take as we both WFH so this would really impact us. It would also means gardens were not secure for a time period and we have children and a dog so this wouldn't be ideal, but is what it is. They talked us through their plans and I pointed out that the work they needed to do would mean altering our property as our exterior is currently in the way of where they want theirs to go. They just said "yes" without anything else. I tried to remain polite and asked why they hadn't spoken to us about this before putting in planning permission as this was not just proposed work to their property, but now ours. They shrugged and said ours shouldn't be built the way it is but they'd cover the cost for us. I pointed out that every property here is like it and if they wanted to extend they probably shouldn't have moved in to a house where there are boundary issues that have been known for 70 years.

We've had some back and forth with them offering nothing in the way of a you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours agreement, and just feel that we should let them do it. I've now said absolutely not.

I've spoken to the old neighbours who we are still in touch with and asked if they ever had any problems with the boundary. They said no but they did have to take out insurance that covered this in case our property ever damaged their garden etc. We have had to do the same because we have the same on the other side so this make sense.

I've gone through the deeds and any paperwork that I have regarding disputes, I even have really old building documents. No issues raised at any point in 70 years of this house being as it is.

AIBU or should neighbours move elsewhere if they're desperate to extend?

The house on the other side of them is empty so I have no idea what they're doing about that side.

The only bit of your post I omitted, @SamphirethePogoingStickerist , was the line "What she needs is legal advice on flying freeholds and party wall agreements." That doesn't change the meaning of the part I quoted.

Indeed, I remember watching a programme I think about local planning team. One couple had a lovely house with 3 acres and we're somewhat surprised to find out that plans had been put to build a housing estate on it. The local planning chap came along and the couple said that they had been given an outline whereby their house would remain,albeit in the middle of a housing estate. Local planner said nonsense,it won't happen. They will pay you £1m per acre. Looks were exchanged between the couple. I assume they sold......(they also had 4 adult children so I expect that came into play).

Give over. As I said, take your own advice. And stop coming on all expert who must be listened to!

OP has had all the advice she actually needs way back upthread! Hopefully she is on her way to finding out how to stop her NNs from doing much of anything that will further inconvenience her.

Ooh! Just realised what your username means @Fulmine

Ignore everything I have said to you. I withdraw every word of it. Change nothing about your posting style. It matches your username perfectly 😃

Over. Pot, kettle ...

*Are there many houses like this, are they considered desirable or undesirable?

It sounds batshit to me if this is how they were built originally.

Are you able to post a pic of the piece they want to remove that doesn't reveal where you are? Don't worry if you don't want to, I understand.*

They're highly desirable, rock solid builds (compared to the thousands of new builds that have gone up) and you get a lot of house for your money. Great location. Houses along here don't usually make it on to the estate agent websites, they're gone as soon as people decide they want to sell.

There are quite a few houses on the surrounding roads built this way. I can't quantify exactly how many but I would guess at least 60 upwards.

Don't want to post a photo as I think that would be seriously outing - I've avoided diagrams for the same reason, although I know these would have been really helpful.

Thank-you everyone for some really helpful advice and resources.

If they are desirable, then you could get neighbours - not immediate neighbours but anyone in the same type of house - to oppose too on the grounds that it would damage the character of the area if this were to be allowed.

Also it may (it may not) embarrass them to be seen to be doing something so stupid!

I reckon the fact they were so relaxed and nonchalant when you came by and “shrugged” when you mentioned your property means they’ve been explicitly advised by legal bod already that there won’t be any problem with what they’re doing

you think someone has told them they are legally entitled to knock down the 1ft overhang plus an extra 2ft of roof space?

If it is in the place I am thinking about I can understand why nowadays you would need insurance.

As I said when you see one house you think something has gone very skewed when they came to put the fences up. But the more you look around you see all the houses are like that.

It takes some getting used to as your NDN’s extension on one wall is bolted on to the end of your kitchen/rear wall and equally if you had an extension one wall etc would be bolted onto your neighbours kitchen/rear wall
The guttering runs along the houses and because of the dog leg garden and boundaries then your neighbours guttering runs over your boundary and your guttering runs over your neighbours boundary.

As I said in pp if these are the houses I am thinking of then they were built as council properties without a thought that one day they would be sold off to private buyers and all the red tape that comes with strange boundaries

leavethewallalone I think you might want to refer them back to their deeds or they get a copy from land registry and take a careful look at where the boundaries are

They bought the house. They should have known what they were buying. You can’t just come in and decide someone else’s property is your to do as you please just because you want things symmetrical

www.lyonsdavidson.co.uk/can-homeowners-overhanging-eaves-gutters/

I think this explains it and I don’t think they can do anything much about it as you are in the right.

They can put in for planning and they can get planning but unless you are in agreement they can’t lay a brick on your property

I think the compensation if you decided you might be in agreement would run into thousands, even tens of thousands given the inconvenience, the loss of part of you property and the knock on property valuation etc

@Fulmine indemnity policies are used widely in conveyancing usually for small issues where there is little risk, which makes them affordable. Classic example is where you have for example done a small extension and not got the building regs signed off properly. They might also be old title entries relating to restrictive covenants. The property conveyancing world is a risk-averse one, and mortgage lenders especially so. Your conveyancer usually act for your lender as well as yourself.

The reason you need an insurance policy is for a situation exactly as OP has described. I would expect the conveyancer to have picked up from the surveyors report that part of the property overhung land which was not in the registered title, and then look for the solution to that issue. For example if there was a legal right to that in the previous conveyance, or an existing insurance policy. If not then they would advise to take out an indemnity policy which covers for dispute or loss of value if, for example, part of the house needs to be removed. The cost of this is likely to be under £100 and it really is very routine.

On a planning application you do have to sign that you either own the land or have served a notice on the owners of land they wish to use and have their agreement to its use. If they have signed and said they own the land, this is grounds for the application to be withdrawn. I got a pp withdrawn where pp application blatantly lied about land ownership.

I should have added re the indemnity policy that they are one off premiums, usually protected against inflation, and you pass them on to the next owner of the house.

It’s a good point @TizerorFizz but aren’t they likely to just serve notice and then resubmit?

If they are altering your building they don’t own it and don’t have your permission. I would contact your local councillor and the planning officer. Make it clear you own what they want to alter.

In our case, our neighbour wanted to build a balcony over Land they didn’t own and supported by a pole placed on land they didn’t own. On the PP application, they sent in a plan showing they owned all that land. We all own up to our front wall and no further. The management company owned the land and didn’t give permission for it to be built over.

if your property is compromised, and the application shows they own the land/property tell you councillor and the planning officer. It could be that it had to be withdrawn.

The council can't give them permission to damage someone else's property.

The council isn’t doing that.

The council can and do pass planning applications from people and companies who don’t own the land they are asking to build on.

However unless they buy the piece of land or house or part of the house or at least have a signed contract that if planning is successful they will buy at £x amount then once planning has gone through it could be just an expensive flight of fancy

They could end up with nothing but an expensive piece of paper.

Surely no one pays out for planning without owning or at least having something in place to say they can own the property and what they are going to buy it for.

My theory is they think that if the council gives them planning then they have a right to build on whatever they like.
I also don’t think they have looked very carefully at the deeds. If they are going to go on to your property even if you came to an agreement then the land registery boundaries would have to be changed on both houses

@Kennykenkencat
They do! They lie about land ownership. You can apply for pp on land you don’t own but you have to declare you don’t own it. That’s the point. Saying you do should end up with non determination. It is actually an offence to lie.

I reckon…

neighbours relaxed because they have got professional advice that council will pass the application

op will complain

complaint will be rejected

work will be carried out

owners on the other side of the op (currently empty as elderly person moved in to care) will put up for sale. New owner will do exactly the same. And poor op will have building works to contend with on the other side!

op will like what both neighbours have done. And do the same herself

Op will come across this thread in a couple of years and be a little red faced at the memory of the fuss she kicked up with the neighbours.

as the op sits in her extension

You can apply for PP on land you don’t own
but you HAVE to inform owner BEFORE applying for PP and confirm as such on the application

neighbours relaxed because they have got professional advice that council will pass the application

Gaining planning permission is not the same as being able to build. As has been pointed out many times on this thread.

@SoupDragon

yes. And I presume that the professional advice they sought made this clear and said that in their experience of similar situations (this is not exactly an uncommon building structure!), this will fly through on all counts.
hence they’re relaxed.

we shall see…!

Very similar scenario at my aunt’s terrace
she was the op

three yard later… it began a domino effect and about 50% of the row have done the same

including my aunt