Neighbours want to adjust exterior of our property

[leavethewallalone]

We have lived in our house for coming up 8 years now. 2 years ago new people moved in next door just before lockdown. We don't have much to do with them other than saying hi when they moved in and taking in parcels for them but they seem ok.

We live in terraced houses but each house has a single storey bit at the back that is detached. They're a kind of weird shape in how they are built because they are 70 years old, think a kind of wonky L shape. The wall of our extended bit sits very close to the boundary and as a result there is some overhang of soffits. This has always been the case and some of the neighbouring properties are the same.

Last week we had a planning letter come through our door. They plan to extend their little detached bit in both directions up to the boundary (single storey). I'm a bit shocked that they didn't speak to us before putting in planning permission, I know you don't have to but a heads up would have been good.
We popped round just to ask what their plans were, how long they thought the work might take as we both WFH so this would really impact us. It would also means gardens were not secure for a time period and we have children and a dog so this wouldn't be ideal, but is what it is. They talked us through their plans and I pointed out that the work they needed to do would mean altering our property as our exterior is currently in the way of where they want theirs to go. They just said "yes" without anything else. I tried to remain polite and asked why they hadn't spoken to us about this before putting in planning permission as this was not just proposed work to their property, but now ours. They shrugged and said ours shouldn't be built the way it is but they'd cover the cost for us. I pointed out that every property here is like it and if they wanted to extend they probably shouldn't have moved in to a house where there are boundary issues that have been known for 70 years.

We've had some back and forth with them offering nothing in the way of a you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours agreement, and just feel that we should let them do it. I've now said absolutely not.

I've spoken to the old neighbours who we are still in touch with and asked if they ever had any problems with the boundary. They said no but they did have to take out insurance that covered this in case our property ever damaged their garden etc. We have had to do the same because we have the same on the other side so this make sense.

I've gone through the deeds and any paperwork that I have regarding disputes, I even have really old building documents. No issues raised at any point in 70 years of this house being as it is.

AIBU or should neighbours move elsewhere if they're desperate to extend?

The house on the other side of them is empty so I have no idea what they're doing about that side.

So it’s fine for you to have an extension , and for it to overhang their property, but they shouldn’t be able to have an extension despite a precedent being set? I think you’re being really unfair! Yes there will be some noise while they are having the work done but there would have been when your house was extended… you just didn’t live there while it was happening (and you’re considering a first floor extension yourselves)! I don’t understand why you think it’s ok for your house to extend over their boundary but not for them to build up to the same boundary? And I certainly don’t think they should have to replace a fence you are responsible for that ‘has seen better days’ as a thank you to you for letting them improve their own house! Yes, they would need a party wall agreement but as others have said, this is common when extending terraces otherwise no one would be able to extend them.

So it’s fine for you to have an extension , and for it to overhang their property, but they shouldn’t be able to have an extension despite a precedent being set?

it's not an extension, it's part of the original house and how they were all built.

You are right to be getting concerned. They must know they are on dodgy ground but are pushing ahead anyway. The planning department won't trouble themselves with little details like who owns the property. They don't get involved in disputes like this and just take it on trust that the person applying owns the property they propose to alter. You will likely have a civil dispute on your hands. You probably need to put on record that you have warned them regarding your ownership of part of the property they are proposing to alter so that they will be in a weak position to justify their behaviour if they try and push ahead with work on your property. I am trying to imagine the layout and assuming that yours and the neighbouring properties have some sort of layout where your front garden is partially in front of their house perhaps? These sort of arrangements on estates where all houses were built at the same time often didn't anticipate the alterations that people try to do now. There might have been restrictive covenants preventing such alterations originally (worth checking your deeds closely for information). You might need a solicitor to advise you and send them a letter.

They’re asking to alter your property but only the bits that overhand their land? Have I read that right?

From what they've described they want to remove this 1ft, plus 2 additional feet, to make way for something they're doing.

Then they won't get it. because you have no reason to agree to that.

Have a look upthread for the link to reasonable reasons to object to planning applications, see if any fit your circumstances.

Tell them that you won't be discussing anything else until they have looked at party wall requirements. and that your current no may well be your last word, they will need to adjust their plans.

Remind them that they are causing their other NN the same issues, see if that changes their attitude a little.

Never look to mumsnet for legal advice. There's so much utter nonsense posted by posters who don't seem to realise how little they actually know 🙄

BinkyRidesForth We haven't built an extension, this is part of the original property that has been there for 70 years. Their soffits overhang their other neighbours in the EXACT same way that ours does.

The extension that has crossed our minds but not acted on because quite frankly I don't have the money for it would be within building regs and not effect them. We haven't even considered it much, it's a thought for the future if we decide not to move in 10 to 15 years.

I don't give a monkeys about them having an extension as long as it doesn't inconvenience us any more than it has to.

So they want to alter/remove the part of your property which overhangs their land by 1ft, but the new part of their planned extension will overhang your land by 2ft?

How on earth would anyone think that's acceptable?

Ah, just read again and its overhanging soffits you are worried about which sit across the boundary? Then it sounds like your property has trespassed into their air space and they may be entitled to cut it back. Will this mean you loose your gutter? Have they proposed a solution to you? If your gutter overhangs then it becomes a question of whether you are allowed to keep it there so you may need some legal advice. Even if it has been there for a very long time they may still be able to prevent you claiming a right to the air space. You may need legal advice on trespass law and adverse possession.

Remind them that they are causing their other NN the same issues, see if that changes their attitude a little.

I did try to have this chat (even invited them round for cake to discuss properly) but they weren't really interested as the neighbouring house is currently empty, so they aren't bothered.

People are giving absolutely dreadful advice that you should by and large avoid. You can’t adverse possess the land as I’ve seen suggested.

I can apply for planning permission for any bit of land in the country, whether I own it or not is entirely irrelevant. The planners do not care and they will completely disregard any comment you make about it.

OP - I would strongly advise calling RICS, they are able to put you in touch with a specialist surveyor who will provide you 30 minutes free advice in boundary disputes. This is the phone number 02476 868 555. The head partner used to give the advice at my old firm, hundreds of pounds of advice for free.

She acknowledges in her OP the houses are known to have boundary issues, she bought a property knowing some of it overhangs across her neighbour’s boundary to the point where she has needed to take out extra insurance to cover potential damage to her neighbour’s garden.

That's not a boundary issue: a boundary issue would basically be a dispute about where the boundary is, whether one person's boundary is being encroached on, etc. The insurance is because of the possibility of damage, not because of the possibility of someone wanting to take away part of your property or because of potential litigation. If there ever had been a dispute over the boundary it would have been resolved through the conveyancing process and/or because this state of affairs has been in place well beyond the 12 year prescription period.

Just out of interest @leavethewallalone, what do the plans say about your neighbour's intentions re. ^their" overhang which goes over the boundary they share with the other neighbour?

I would guess the presence of this overhang across the whole row is why these small L-shaped extensions are still present throughout the 70yo terraces. If it was a straightforward case of "get your soffits off my lawn" someone along the row would have done an infill extension well before now.

If I were you I would lodge a planning objection to the extension on the basis of the fact that it will be out of keeping with the rest of the row, and that it will interfere with the existing rooflines and create an aesthetic deficit. Then, separately, seek early professional advice on the flying freehold and see if you might have any liability should they get planning and proceed with the works. I would be surprised if you did given the age of the properties involved, but better to check it out as soon as possible.

elbea this is really helpful, thank-you

The council can't give them permission to damage someone else's property.

what do the plans say about your neighbour's intentions re. ^their" overhang which goes over the boundary they share with the other neighbour?

They have been left out of the plans!

No. Yet again. It isn't a boundary dispute, everybody knows where the boundary is, and OP will not be losing any part of her house.

What she needs is legal advice on flying freeholds and party wall agreements.

Removing the 1ft overhang is reasonable, removing anything that is on your side of the boundary is not and will not be permitted when you go down the PWA agreement. They can learn this expensive mistake for themselves when they get the planning and then appoint a surveyor.

I recommend you do your research and insist on an independent surveyor for the PWA once they have served you notice. They must pay the bill for your and their surveyor and they will be able to advise you in terms of what is and is not reasonable.

I would also not be amenable to any work on my property which is firmly on my side of the boundary. I do feel you need to drop the insinuation that they should do something additional to benefit you in order to do the work - their obligation is to minimise disruption, be respectful and not damage your property. Expecting something more is unreasonable

I do feel you need to drop the insinuation that they should do something additional to benefit you in order to do the work - their obligation is to minimise disruption, be respectful and not damage your property. Expecting something more is unreasonable

I'll accept this. If they'd offered to do anything helpful for us to be honest we probably would have let them to the work as they wanted to, is what I meant, which would have meant adjusting our property on our side of the boundary. But I'll accept that it's better to keep it simple.

Sorry seen your further posts in the mean time. I think you need to look at the property deeds to see if there is any information there to help you. If all the neighbouring properties are the same and were originally built like this 70 years ago then you are probably on stronger ground. They may need your agreement on making the changes. Be wary though of their cosy chats with you lest they later claim you made an agreement with them that they could make the changes! You may need to put something in writing to prove otherwise.

I don’t agree that the insurance will only cover damage to someone else property. If part of your property is outside the redline of your land you should have been advised to have an indemnity policy for exactly this risk that has now come to pass! Your solicitor should have advised you this, and your mortgage company will have required it. It may have been that the policy was already in place when you bought it so you haven’t read it in detail, but this is what you need to do now @leavethewallalone . The policy should cover for loss of value, and for legal advice for disputes. Use it now.

That's interesting. It confirms that the likelihood is that either OP has a right for the soffits to overhang which is covered in the deeds, or has acquired that right because they have been there for over 20 years. So it is not correct to assume that it must be OP who is in the wrong.

I'm trying to understand what they want to do.

They want to remove your soffit which currently hang 1ft over the boundary over their garden.

Are they also genuinely wanting to... hack into your current building and reduce your property (wall? Roof) by 2ft?

Can you add a drawing, please?

They cannot get planning permission for an extension that requires works to be done by a third party in order for it to happen. Planning permission doesn't have to be for land you own, that is true, but it can't be granted for development work that involves knocking down or altering someone else's building in order to achieve the finished extension.

I have never heard of a household extension being granted permission that involves cutting into another building that is outwith the boundary and not associated with the site.

I can't picture what your garden and building arrangement looks like nor what they are trying to do.

Have a look at the link that @CheeseCakeSunflowers posted - it's highly likely that OP does. In fact I think it's near-inconceivable that the respective solicitors wouldn't have checked on this during the conveyancing process.

This will come back to bite them when it is occupied and they will regret not pulling their extension firmly back into their boundary. I wouldn't worry about bringing this up, it is their problem.

In their shoes, I would be extra cautious as there is every chance any potential buyer would see the potential from the work they do and buy the property in order to do the same. Our neighbours bought their house mid way through our renovation because it opened their eyes to the potential the property had in the future