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AIBU to be annoyed that my Grandfather’s Will has likely been forged, and there’s nothing we can do about it?

164 replies

Madeintheseventies · 25/04/2022 09:49

My Grandad died over 15 years ago ( I don’t want to give exact dates etc ) and left a Will which left basically everything to my Aunt.
He had only two Children, being my Aunt and my Mum. (My Grandma had already passed years previously}

My Mum was not mentioned in his Will, and so it was as if she didn’t exist. After the funeral, my Aunt showed Mum a copy of my Grandad’s Will, as she was the Executor, and Mum saw for herself that all of my Grandad’s assets, including his home, car, caravan, boat and his money was left to my Aunt.
This exclusion obviously upset my Mum, not because of losing out financially, but because she wondered why she must’ve meant nothing to her Father as her existence wasn’t even acknowledged. She was especially upset as she didn’t even receive any sentimental personal possessions belonging to him.

Fast forward to a few years ago. My Mum and I were talking about Wills , and out of curiosity I decided to download my Grandad’s Will, as I hadn’t seen it previously.
(For the record, myself, my two Sisters and my Aunt’s three Children were mentioned in the original Will, and were each given £500 at the time of my Grandad’s death by my Aunt, and we received this before probate being obtained and before my Sisters and I knew my Mum had been excluded)
When I downloaded the Will, my Mum asked to see it again and was shocked when I showed it to her as she insisted that the ‘original Will’ she’d been shown years before had been typed, yet the downloaded Will was written in my Aunt’s handwriting, which both my Mum and I recognised immediately.

My Mum hadn’t questioned the validity of the Will years before as she was led to believe it’d had been drawn up by a Solicitor, and that my Grandad had been present at the execution of it in the Solicitor’s office.
Now, with the realisation that the Will submitted to Probate all those years ago was this handwritten home made one, my Family and I are suspicious that my Aunt has forged (or at the very least doctored) my Grandad’s Will in order to benefit herself.

After all, she was instrumental in writing it, her two friends witnessed it, she was the sole Executor and sole beneficiary of all of his assets (excluding the £500 some of us received) and she gave two different versions of the Will, one for my Mum to see and one for the probate office.
To add, the home made Will was also originally made in the 80’s apparently, according to the date on it, but it wasn’t executed until 7 years later.
I don’t believe that if my Grandad genuinely made his Will in the 80’s, he would’ve left it unsigned until years later, even though I managed to obtain an affidavit of due execution from the Probate registry stating that one of the Witnesses was present when my Grandad signed his Will at home.

As I know the witnesses, I decided to visit them and ask if they did indeed both remember signing the Will in the presence of my Grandad. They both said they think they did sign something at his house, but questioned the look of their signatures as they didn’t seem quite right.
Now, my family and I are left convinced that whilst the witnesses may have signed ‘something’, it likely wasn’t my Grandad’s actual Will, or at least the Will which was submitted to Probate.
What’s more, my Aunt was the only one who had a key to my Grandad’s house, she also had POA before his death, and she would’ve had the ability to access his money and ensure whatever ‘Will’ she wanted to present to the Probate office could benefit her.
I’m not really sure what I’m asking, but is there anything that can be done to contest the Will, even at this very late stage?
If so, could we represent ourselves to save on expensive costs?

Additionally, does anyone know if the Probate office should’ve got in touch with my Mum at the time of Probate (in case she wanted to raise a challenge to the Will) had they known of my Mum’s existence? … could my Aunt have lied on the Probate application forms to claim she was an only Child in order that my Mum wouldn’t be contacted?
Any advice welcome and sorry for the long post!

OP posts:
Madeintheseventies · 26/04/2022 09:39

Octomore · 26/04/2022 09:17

Sounds like your GM was unduly influenced by him, but difficult to challenge as the hospice staff would’ve confirmed their signatures if necessary.

She was also completely out of it most of the time, and was likely out of it when she signed.

But the hospice workers were never going to admit to witnessing a signature for a woman who didn't have capacity. That would make them look bad.

That is bang out of order of them to have signed it if your GM wasn’t really aware of what she was doing. I’m shocked that you weren’t able to challenge it.

Although on saying that, it seems anything goes when it comes to the drafting of home made Wills, it’s just ridiculous that the Courts make it so easy for people to get away with submitting Wills which are actually either invalid, or the Testator has been influenced or unaware of what they were really signing.

Once again, I can’t urge anyone reading this enough to ensure you prepare a Will at your earliest opportunity (and advise your families to do the same), and have them done through a Solicitor.

OP posts:
Madeintheseventies · 26/04/2022 09:51

Octomore · 26/04/2022 09:17

Sounds like your GM was unduly influenced by him, but difficult to challenge as the hospice staff would’ve confirmed their signatures if necessary.

She was also completely out of it most of the time, and was likely out of it when she signed.

But the hospice workers were never going to admit to witnessing a signature for a woman who didn't have capacity. That would make them look bad.

That is bang out of order of them to have signed it if your GM wasn’t really aware of what she was doing. I’m shocked that you weren’t able to challenge it.

Although on saying that, it seems anything goes when it comes to the drafting of home made Wills, it’s just ridiculous that the Courts make it so easy for people to get away with submitting Wills which are actually either invalid, or the Testator has been influenced or unaware of what they were really signing.

Once again, I can’t urge anyone reading this enough to ensure you prepare a Will at your earliest opportunity (and advise your families to do the same), and have them done through a Solicitor.

OP posts:
Madeintheseventies · 26/04/2022 09:52

Octomore · 26/04/2022 09:17

Sounds like your GM was unduly influenced by him, but difficult to challenge as the hospice staff would’ve confirmed their signatures if necessary.

She was also completely out of it most of the time, and was likely out of it when she signed.

But the hospice workers were never going to admit to witnessing a signature for a woman who didn't have capacity. That would make them look bad.

That is bang out of order of them to have signed it if your GM wasn’t really aware of what she was doing. I’m shocked that you weren’t able to challenge it.

Although on saying that, it seems anything goes when it comes to the drafting of home made Wills, it’s just ridiculous that the Courts make it so easy for people to get away with submitting Wills which are actually either invalid, or the Testator has been influenced or unaware of what they were really signing.

Once again, I can’t urge anyone reading this enough to ensure you prepare a Will at your earliest opportunity (and advise your families to do the same), and have them done through a Solicitor.

OP posts:
Madeintheseventies · 26/04/2022 09:56

Octomore · 26/04/2022 09:17

Sounds like your GM was unduly influenced by him, but difficult to challenge as the hospice staff would’ve confirmed their signatures if necessary.

She was also completely out of it most of the time, and was likely out of it when she signed.

But the hospice workers were never going to admit to witnessing a signature for a woman who didn't have capacity. That would make them look bad.

That is bang out of order of them to have signed it if your GM wasn’t really aware of what she was doing. I’m shocked that you weren’t able to challenge it.

Although on saying that, it seems anything goes when it comes to the drafting of home made Wills, it’s just ridiculous that the Courts make it so easy for people to get away with submitting Wills which are actually either invalid, or the Testator has been influenced or unaware of what they were really signing.

Once again, I can’t urge anyone reading this enough to ensure you prepare a Will at your earliest opportunity (and advise your families to do the same), and have them done through a Solicitor.

OP posts:
Madeintheseventies · 26/04/2022 10:00

Octomore · 26/04/2022 09:17

Sounds like your GM was unduly influenced by him, but difficult to challenge as the hospice staff would’ve confirmed their signatures if necessary.

She was also completely out of it most of the time, and was likely out of it when she signed.

But the hospice workers were never going to admit to witnessing a signature for a woman who didn't have capacity. That would make them look bad.

That is bang out of order of them to have signed it if your GM wasn’t really aware of what she was doing. I’m shocked that you weren’t able to challenge it.

Although on saying that, it seems anything goes when it comes to the drafting of home made Wills, it’s just ridiculous that the Courts make it so easy for people to get away with submitting Wills which are actually either invalid, or the Testator has been influenced or unaware of what they were really signing.

Once again, I can’t urge anyone reading this enough to ensure you prepare a Will at your earliest opportunity (and advise your families to do the same), and have them done through a Solicitor.

OP posts:
Madeintheseventies · 26/04/2022 10:04

Octomore · 26/04/2022 09:17

Sounds like your GM was unduly influenced by him, but difficult to challenge as the hospice staff would’ve confirmed their signatures if necessary.

She was also completely out of it most of the time, and was likely out of it when she signed.

But the hospice workers were never going to admit to witnessing a signature for a woman who didn't have capacity. That would make them look bad.

That is bang out of order of them to have signed it if your GM wasn’t really aware of what she was doing. I’m shocked that you weren’t able to challenge it.

Although on saying that, it seems anything goes when it comes to the drafting of home made Wills, it’s just ridiculous that the Courts make it so easy for people to get away with submitting Wills which are actually either invalid, or the Testator has been influenced or unaware of what they were really signing.

Once again, I can’t urge anyone reading this enough to ensure you prepare a Will at your earliest opportunity (and advise your families to do the same), and have them done through a Solicitor.

OP posts:
Madeintheseventies · 26/04/2022 10:23

Octomore · 26/04/2022 09:17

Sounds like your GM was unduly influenced by him, but difficult to challenge as the hospice staff would’ve confirmed their signatures if necessary.

She was also completely out of it most of the time, and was likely out of it when she signed.

But the hospice workers were never going to admit to witnessing a signature for a woman who didn't have capacity. That would make them look bad.

That is bang out of order of them to have signed it if your GM wasn’t really aware of what she was doing. I’m shocked that you weren’t able to challenge it.

Although on saying that, it seems anything goes when it comes to the drafting of home made Wills, it’s just ridiculous that the Courts make it so easy for people to get away with submitting Wills which are actually either invalid, or the Testator has been influenced or unaware of what they were really signing.

Once again, I can’t urge anyone reading this enough to ensure you prepare a Will at your earliest opportunity (and advise your families to do the same), and have them done through a Solicitor.

OP posts:
Madeintheseventies · 26/04/2022 10:24

Octomore · 26/04/2022 09:17

Sounds like your GM was unduly influenced by him, but difficult to challenge as the hospice staff would’ve confirmed their signatures if necessary.

She was also completely out of it most of the time, and was likely out of it when she signed.

But the hospice workers were never going to admit to witnessing a signature for a woman who didn't have capacity. That would make them look bad.

That is bang out of order of them to have signed it if your GM wasn’t really aware of what she was doing. I’m shocked that you weren’t able to challenge it.

Although on saying that, it seems anything goes when it comes to the drafting of home made Wills, it’s just ridiculous that the Courts make it so easy for people to get away with submitting Wills which are actually either invalid, or the Testator has been influenced or unaware of what they were really signing.

Once again, I can’t urge anyone reading this enough to ensure you prepare a Will at your earliest opportunity (and advise your families to do the same), and have them done through a Solicitor.

OP posts:
Madeintheseventies · 26/04/2022 10:26

Sorry about the identical posts ….. I thought my post wasn’t registering

OP posts:
Thehouseofmarvels · 26/04/2022 18:50

@Madeintheseventies My partner is on disbility benefits. Part of his benefits are means tested and part are not means tested. I know this all too well as I am currently a student but I start work as a teacher in September. We are goimg to call the benefits people in August and he will loose a big chunk of benefits. If a person has a house they do not live in or money over the benefits limit. If their partner earns enough, owns a house they do not live in or has savings, also no benefits. I assure you that means tested disability benefits that are means tested exist. If your aunts partner works or has savings over the limit and so is claiming that is also fraud.

Thehouseofmarvels · 26/04/2022 19:02

I just asked and he gets some PIP with universal credit that was switched over from the old ESA. I think ESA was not means tested but the govenment have been switching people to universal credit in the last few years. If your aunt was switched to universal credit from ESA she may get a non means tested benefit.

Madeintheseventies · 27/04/2022 08:29

Thehouseofmarvels · 26/04/2022 18:50

@Madeintheseventies My partner is on disbility benefits. Part of his benefits are means tested and part are not means tested. I know this all too well as I am currently a student but I start work as a teacher in September. We are goimg to call the benefits people in August and he will loose a big chunk of benefits. If a person has a house they do not live in or money over the benefits limit. If their partner earns enough, owns a house they do not live in or has savings, also no benefits. I assure you that means tested disability benefits that are means tested exist. If your aunts partner works or has savings over the limit and so is claiming that is also fraud.

That’s interesting, although I really don’t know exactly what sort of disability benefit she’s been claiming.
Even if everything is above board with regards to her claiming things, I’m still really curious as to why she’s not transferred my Grandad’s house into her name.

OP posts:
SScoobiedoo · 27/04/2022 08:59

it seems anything goes when it comes to the drafting of home made

But what is odd is that your DM accepted the fact that her father had left her out of his will, that everything went to her sis. It's been years but she never, even when recovered from her grief, questioned it, or questioned why the sis is low contact or other things.
Was there no one else around who raised a query - no family member etc

Madeintheseventies · 27/04/2022 09:55

SScoobiedoo · 27/04/2022 08:59

it seems anything goes when it comes to the drafting of home made

But what is odd is that your DM accepted the fact that her father had left her out of his will, that everything went to her sis. It's been years but she never, even when recovered from her grief, questioned it, or questioned why the sis is low contact or other things.
Was there no one else around who raised a query - no family member etc

None of the extended family knew about the contents of the ‘Will’, as my Mum didn’t want anyone to, as she felt hurt and embarrassed that she’d been excluded.

She didn’t want people to have the false assumption she’d not been a ‘caring, involved Daughter’, and I suppose in the naïveté of my Mum, Sisters and I, we never even thought it possible to challenge a Will. Especially a Will that’d be drawn up through a Solicitor.
Although my Mum was very shocked that she’d been excluded, she ‘rationalised’ it by presuming that my Grandad must’ve left everything to her sister because she was the one who saw him more often, went shopping with him, occasionally took him to the Doctors/hospital etc.

From what I remember, my Aunt would visit my Grandad maybe two or three times a week (she only lived literally around the corner), but my Mum could only visit him on average every ten days or so, due to distance and work commitments.
Although Mum probably spent more time with my Grandad on the days she did see him than my Aunt did on her mostly flying visits.
In hindsight, we believe that the only reason my Aunt visited often was because she was allowing my Grandad to pay for her shopping (amongst other things) too, as comments were sometimes made by my Grandad alluding to that.
In short, my Aunt was after what she could get financially it seems.

She also gained POA, and we now believe she was probably eventually accessing my Grandad’s accounts and spending his money without him knowing.
Maybe this could be one reason why she may have felt the need to forge a Will (which we’re convinced she did), to stop my Mum from finding out that she’d been likely syphoning off their Dad’s money for years.

It may be coming across as if we’re overly assuming my Aunt was accessing money, but without going into more detail, and providing many examples, it seems obvious to us that she was.
My Aunt was not motivated to visit or do things for my Grandad out of her love for him, and one way it’s especially telling that she couldn’t have cared less about him is the way she’s allowed his home to get into such a state.

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