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AIBU to be annoyed that my Grandfather’s Will has likely been forged, and there’s nothing we can do about it?

164 replies

Madeintheseventies · 25/04/2022 09:49

My Grandad died over 15 years ago ( I don’t want to give exact dates etc ) and left a Will which left basically everything to my Aunt.
He had only two Children, being my Aunt and my Mum. (My Grandma had already passed years previously}

My Mum was not mentioned in his Will, and so it was as if she didn’t exist. After the funeral, my Aunt showed Mum a copy of my Grandad’s Will, as she was the Executor, and Mum saw for herself that all of my Grandad’s assets, including his home, car, caravan, boat and his money was left to my Aunt.
This exclusion obviously upset my Mum, not because of losing out financially, but because she wondered why she must’ve meant nothing to her Father as her existence wasn’t even acknowledged. She was especially upset as she didn’t even receive any sentimental personal possessions belonging to him.

Fast forward to a few years ago. My Mum and I were talking about Wills , and out of curiosity I decided to download my Grandad’s Will, as I hadn’t seen it previously.
(For the record, myself, my two Sisters and my Aunt’s three Children were mentioned in the original Will, and were each given £500 at the time of my Grandad’s death by my Aunt, and we received this before probate being obtained and before my Sisters and I knew my Mum had been excluded)
When I downloaded the Will, my Mum asked to see it again and was shocked when I showed it to her as she insisted that the ‘original Will’ she’d been shown years before had been typed, yet the downloaded Will was written in my Aunt’s handwriting, which both my Mum and I recognised immediately.

My Mum hadn’t questioned the validity of the Will years before as she was led to believe it’d had been drawn up by a Solicitor, and that my Grandad had been present at the execution of it in the Solicitor’s office.
Now, with the realisation that the Will submitted to Probate all those years ago was this handwritten home made one, my Family and I are suspicious that my Aunt has forged (or at the very least doctored) my Grandad’s Will in order to benefit herself.

After all, she was instrumental in writing it, her two friends witnessed it, she was the sole Executor and sole beneficiary of all of his assets (excluding the £500 some of us received) and she gave two different versions of the Will, one for my Mum to see and one for the probate office.
To add, the home made Will was also originally made in the 80’s apparently, according to the date on it, but it wasn’t executed until 7 years later.
I don’t believe that if my Grandad genuinely made his Will in the 80’s, he would’ve left it unsigned until years later, even though I managed to obtain an affidavit of due execution from the Probate registry stating that one of the Witnesses was present when my Grandad signed his Will at home.

As I know the witnesses, I decided to visit them and ask if they did indeed both remember signing the Will in the presence of my Grandad. They both said they think they did sign something at his house, but questioned the look of their signatures as they didn’t seem quite right.
Now, my family and I are left convinced that whilst the witnesses may have signed ‘something’, it likely wasn’t my Grandad’s actual Will, or at least the Will which was submitted to Probate.
What’s more, my Aunt was the only one who had a key to my Grandad’s house, she also had POA before his death, and she would’ve had the ability to access his money and ensure whatever ‘Will’ she wanted to present to the Probate office could benefit her.
I’m not really sure what I’m asking, but is there anything that can be done to contest the Will, even at this very late stage?
If so, could we represent ourselves to save on expensive costs?

Additionally, does anyone know if the Probate office should’ve got in touch with my Mum at the time of Probate (in case she wanted to raise a challenge to the Will) had they known of my Mum’s existence? … could my Aunt have lied on the Probate application forms to claim she was an only Child in order that my Mum wouldn’t be contacted?
Any advice welcome and sorry for the long post!

OP posts:
Madeintheseventies · 25/04/2022 18:07

abbey44 · 25/04/2022 15:07

Something similar happened to my Dad and his sister when they discovered that their older sister had been Executor of several family wills, including those of their parents, and had (funnily enough) been the only beneficiary. They took legal advice (it all came to light in the early 90s but the wills had been dealt with over a period of some decades prior to that) but the upshot was that there were absolutely no consequences for the thieving sister as (a) the amounts were relatively small and (b) she was quite elderly by then and no court would convict an old lady, apparently. So my Dad and his other sister were advised to drop it. Absolutely shocking.

That’s disgusting of your Aunt to have done that, it seems to be a fairly common theme with people resorting to underhandedness in order to steal money through dodgy Wills.

OP posts:
Longdistance · 25/04/2022 18:09

Can you get a copy of the deeds? It should say who owns it and when it was transferred. www.gov.uk/government/organisations/land-registry
I’d start there and then see what information you can get. I’d be looking at reporting it as fraud too.
The reason she has not been in contact is that she’s as guilty as hell!

godmum56 · 25/04/2022 18:19

OP has already checked and its still in her granddads name

Madeintheseventies · 25/04/2022 18:19

prh47bridge · 25/04/2022 17:57

If she has acted fraudulently, she is liable for the amount your mother should have inherited. She cannot avoid that by giving the house to her children.

That’s good to know, should it come to this point.
Although hypothetically speaking, if it was eventually found that my Aunt was at liberty to make a settlement with my Mum, if her asset/s have been signed over to her children, could she then claim she is broke and therefore not have the ability to give my Mum a lump sum and instead just be ordered to pay a small amount on a regular basis?
Or would the Court be able to seize my Grandad’s house (even if it was now in my cousins names) and force it be sold for example, so that my Mum could receive some rightful inheritance?
Sorry for all the questions!

OP posts:
SScoobiedoo · 25/04/2022 18:23

Should there have been inheritance tax paid? House, car, caravan, savings?

SScoobiedoo · 25/04/2022 18:26

Surely banks keep records going back?
I thought a solicitor was involved in executing of wills - did Aunt just do everything herself, when DM died we got a letter telling us the amounts from the solicitor. The aunt at least should have had a letter- I'm in Scotland

Madeintheseventies · 25/04/2022 18:28

SScoobiedoo · 25/04/2022 18:23

Should there have been inheritance tax paid? House, car, caravan, savings?

I think it would’ve come under the inheritance tax bracket, I think it was £325,000 if I read rightly? …. But he still had a sizeable amount when everything was added together.

OP posts:
SScoobiedoo · 25/04/2022 18:34

2006 when the IHT allowance was £285,000.

Madeintheseventies · 25/04/2022 18:34

SScoobiedoo · 25/04/2022 18:26

Surely banks keep records going back?
I thought a solicitor was involved in executing of wills - did Aunt just do everything herself, when DM died we got a letter telling us the amounts from the solicitor. The aunt at least should have had a letter- I'm in Scotland

I’m unsure how long banks keep records for.
I think if you have assets over a certain amount it has to go to Probate. An affidavit of due execution was signed at the Solicitors by both my Aunt and one of the witnesses. but as for the actual drafting of the Will, that was done at home.

This is where I believe my Aunt forged the Will and after applying for Probate, when my Grandad died, she went along with her friend to say everything had been executed properly.

OP posts:
Angrymum22 · 25/04/2022 18:36

You need to start with your grandfathers solicitor. The older generations tended to use a local family solicitor that may have been swallowed up by a bigger. I believe that there is a statutory time they have to keep copies of wills for situations like yours. It will have your grandfathers signature on it.
Also his bank may still hold a copy of his signature.
All beneficiaries are usually given a statement of accounts after probate has been granted.

Madeintheseventies · 25/04/2022 18:39

SScoobiedoo · 25/04/2022 18:34

2006 when the IHT allowance was £285,000.

Oh I see, it was before 2006 ( I don’t want to give the correct date as my Aunt could be reading this for all I know, hopefully not!)

I believe the estate would’ve been worth less than £285,000, not by too much though.

OP posts:
Angrymum22 · 25/04/2022 18:41

Just checked and they have to keep a will for 50 years. He may have written a later will that overrides the previous will but usually a solicitor will just add a codicil to the original rather than preparing a whole new will unless there are lots of changes or his financial circumstances had changed dramatically (lottery win perhaps or a large inheritance) meany inheritance tax issues need to be addressed.

Madeintheseventies · 25/04/2022 18:45

Angrymum22 · 25/04/2022 18:36

You need to start with your grandfathers solicitor. The older generations tended to use a local family solicitor that may have been swallowed up by a bigger. I believe that there is a statutory time they have to keep copies of wills for situations like yours. It will have your grandfathers signature on it.
Also his bank may still hold a copy of his signature.
All beneficiaries are usually given a statement of accounts after probate has been granted.

The only trouble is, presumably any Solicitor would only have a copy of the hand written Will my Aunt gave to them and no others.

I don’t think my Grandad would’ve made a Will with a Solicitor, as he never ventured out really.
My Sisters and I never received a statement of accounts, but considering my Aunt wa the Executor, maybe she didn’t have to provide that.

Everything fell into place for her really, and it would’ve been so easy for her to manipulate a fake Will.

OP posts:
Madeintheseventies · 25/04/2022 18:50

Angrymum22 · 25/04/2022 18:41

Just checked and they have to keep a will for 50 years. He may have written a later will that overrides the previous will but usually a solicitor will just add a codicil to the original rather than preparing a whole new will unless there are lots of changes or his financial circumstances had changed dramatically (lottery win perhaps or a large inheritance) meany inheritance tax issues need to be addressed.

Thanks for looking, I must’ve cross posted!

I didn’t know that re the 50 years, but as mentioned, I don’t think he would’ve gone to a Solicitor to draw one up. Instead he would’ve blindly trusted my Aunt with his finances it seems.
Even IF my Grandad decided to make a Will with a Solicitor off his own back, I honestly wouldn’t know where to start looking! …. Maybe I should contact some in our Town Centre!

OP posts:
Madeintheseventies · 25/04/2022 18:52

Angrymum22 · 25/04/2022 18:41

Just checked and they have to keep a will for 50 years. He may have written a later will that overrides the previous will but usually a solicitor will just add a codicil to the original rather than preparing a whole new will unless there are lots of changes or his financial circumstances had changed dramatically (lottery win perhaps or a large inheritance) meany inheritance tax issues need to be addressed.

Thanks for looking, I must’ve cross posted!

I didn’t know that re the 50 years, but as mentioned, I don’t think he would’ve gone to a Solicitor to draw one up. Instead he would’ve blindly trusted my Aunt with his finances it seems.
Even IF my Grandad decided to make a Will with a Solicitor off his own back, I honestly wouldn’t know where to start looking! …. Maybe I should contact some in our Town Centre!

OP posts:
Octomore · 25/04/2022 18:56

So am I right in assuming that given she has a separate asset to the home she lives in, she wouldn’t even be entitled to claim disability payments would you know?

DLA isn't means tested, so her assets wouldn't affect her disability benefits if she receives DLA.

Octomore · 25/04/2022 19:00

I don’t think he would’ve gone to a Solicitor to draw one up.

So why was your mum under the impression that he had, if that would have been out of character for him? The only piece of 'evidence' that you have is your mum saying that she had been under the impression he'd had a typed up will drawn up by a solicitor. But if that would have been totally out of character for him, that makes no sense.

Octomore · 25/04/2022 19:03

Madeintheseventies · 25/04/2022 18:39

Oh I see, it was before 2006 ( I don’t want to give the correct date as my Aunt could be reading this for all I know, hopefully not!)

I believe the estate would’ve been worth less than £285,000, not by too much though.

If he inherited from his wife when she died (I assume he would have done) then he would also have inherited her nil rate band. That is how it works between spouses.

Their joint estate would then have had a nil rate band at the point of his death of £285k x 2 = £570k.

Madeintheseventies · 25/04/2022 19:17

Octomore · 25/04/2022 19:00

I don’t think he would’ve gone to a Solicitor to draw one up.

So why was your mum under the impression that he had, if that would have been out of character for him? The only piece of 'evidence' that you have is your mum saying that she had been under the impression he'd had a typed up will drawn up by a solicitor. But if that would have been totally out of character for him, that makes no sense.

My Mum was under the impression that he had drawn one up with a Solicitor as the typed Will looked formal. Besides, just because something seems ‘out of character’ it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen!
My Mum ( in her naivety maybe, and mixed with the fact she was grieving, as we all were) had no reason to suspect anyone may have forged her Father’s Will.

OP posts:
Madeintheseventies · 25/04/2022 19:20

Octomore · 25/04/2022 19:03

If he inherited from his wife when she died (I assume he would have done) then he would also have inherited her nil rate band. That is how it works between spouses.

Their joint estate would then have had a nil rate band at the point of his death of £285k x 2 = £570k.

My Grandparents were both elderly when they died, I don’t get what you mean by this ….

OP posts:
Octomore · 25/04/2022 19:25

Their age makes no difference.

When your GM died, I assume her estate went 100% to your GF? That would be the normal thing. An estate left to a spouse is free of IHT, but the nil rate band that the person had doesn't disappear - it gets passed to their spouse. So your GF would have had both your GM's nil rate band and his own nil rate band applied to his estate.

This means the IHT threshold would have effectively been doubled for his estate.

This is why people marry "for tax reasons".

PortiaFimbriata · 25/04/2022 19:56

So if we assume that your aunt effectively stole half your grandfather's estate, and there's a possibility that she's not declared her ownership of a second home in order to fraudulently claim benefits (not a certainty since DLA isn't means tested) then there is an obvious course of action open to you. Blackmail is an ugly word, (and a criminal offence in some circumstances) but ...

prh47bridge · 25/04/2022 20:02

Madeintheseventies · 25/04/2022 18:19

That’s good to know, should it come to this point.
Although hypothetically speaking, if it was eventually found that my Aunt was at liberty to make a settlement with my Mum, if her asset/s have been signed over to her children, could she then claim she is broke and therefore not have the ability to give my Mum a lump sum and instead just be ordered to pay a small amount on a regular basis?
Or would the Court be able to seize my Grandad’s house (even if it was now in my cousins names) and force it be sold for example, so that my Mum could receive some rightful inheritance?
Sorry for all the questions!

Rather than asking lots of questions here, you really need to take proper, real life advice from a lawyer. If there is enough evidence, they may advise taking it to the police. They may also advise taking steps to avoid the kind of scenario that you are concerned about.

mocktail · 25/04/2022 23:36

@Octomore I believe that rule only came in in 2007 unfortunately so doesn't apply in this case.

Thehouseofmarvels · 25/04/2022 23:46

@madeintheseventies. If there is any chance your aunt is on any means tested benefit the house would count as an asset. One possible reason for your aunt not putting the house into her name is she is worried the benefits people could do a land registry search. She may have not sold is as once it came into her account she'd need to declare it and loose any means tested benefts or she'have to tollerate both lying abbout her assets and having done will fraud. Maybe she lost her nerve. Have you thought about sending a letter saying that you will take her to court for will fraud and discuss her situation with the benefits people? Is her other home rented or owned? Is rented she may claim housing benefit.

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