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Legal matters

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AIBU to be annoyed that my Grandfather’s Will has likely been forged, and there’s nothing we can do about it?

164 replies

Madeintheseventies · 25/04/2022 09:49

My Grandad died over 15 years ago ( I don’t want to give exact dates etc ) and left a Will which left basically everything to my Aunt.
He had only two Children, being my Aunt and my Mum. (My Grandma had already passed years previously}

My Mum was not mentioned in his Will, and so it was as if she didn’t exist. After the funeral, my Aunt showed Mum a copy of my Grandad’s Will, as she was the Executor, and Mum saw for herself that all of my Grandad’s assets, including his home, car, caravan, boat and his money was left to my Aunt.
This exclusion obviously upset my Mum, not because of losing out financially, but because she wondered why she must’ve meant nothing to her Father as her existence wasn’t even acknowledged. She was especially upset as she didn’t even receive any sentimental personal possessions belonging to him.

Fast forward to a few years ago. My Mum and I were talking about Wills , and out of curiosity I decided to download my Grandad’s Will, as I hadn’t seen it previously.
(For the record, myself, my two Sisters and my Aunt’s three Children were mentioned in the original Will, and were each given £500 at the time of my Grandad’s death by my Aunt, and we received this before probate being obtained and before my Sisters and I knew my Mum had been excluded)
When I downloaded the Will, my Mum asked to see it again and was shocked when I showed it to her as she insisted that the ‘original Will’ she’d been shown years before had been typed, yet the downloaded Will was written in my Aunt’s handwriting, which both my Mum and I recognised immediately.

My Mum hadn’t questioned the validity of the Will years before as she was led to believe it’d had been drawn up by a Solicitor, and that my Grandad had been present at the execution of it in the Solicitor’s office.
Now, with the realisation that the Will submitted to Probate all those years ago was this handwritten home made one, my Family and I are suspicious that my Aunt has forged (or at the very least doctored) my Grandad’s Will in order to benefit herself.

After all, she was instrumental in writing it, her two friends witnessed it, she was the sole Executor and sole beneficiary of all of his assets (excluding the £500 some of us received) and she gave two different versions of the Will, one for my Mum to see and one for the probate office.
To add, the home made Will was also originally made in the 80’s apparently, according to the date on it, but it wasn’t executed until 7 years later.
I don’t believe that if my Grandad genuinely made his Will in the 80’s, he would’ve left it unsigned until years later, even though I managed to obtain an affidavit of due execution from the Probate registry stating that one of the Witnesses was present when my Grandad signed his Will at home.

As I know the witnesses, I decided to visit them and ask if they did indeed both remember signing the Will in the presence of my Grandad. They both said they think they did sign something at his house, but questioned the look of their signatures as they didn’t seem quite right.
Now, my family and I are left convinced that whilst the witnesses may have signed ‘something’, it likely wasn’t my Grandad’s actual Will, or at least the Will which was submitted to Probate.
What’s more, my Aunt was the only one who had a key to my Grandad’s house, she also had POA before his death, and she would’ve had the ability to access his money and ensure whatever ‘Will’ she wanted to present to the Probate office could benefit her.
I’m not really sure what I’m asking, but is there anything that can be done to contest the Will, even at this very late stage?
If so, could we represent ourselves to save on expensive costs?

Additionally, does anyone know if the Probate office should’ve got in touch with my Mum at the time of Probate (in case she wanted to raise a challenge to the Will) had they known of my Mum’s existence? … could my Aunt have lied on the Probate application forms to claim she was an only Child in order that my Mum wouldn’t be contacted?
Any advice welcome and sorry for the long post!

OP posts:
chocorabbit · 25/04/2022 11:26

Report your message and for it to be moved.

chocorabbit · 25/04/2022 11:26

and ASK

Octomore · 25/04/2022 11:27

And yes - there is no need for witnesses to read a will they are witnessing, so it's not unusual or evidence of wrongdoing that they did not read your grandfather's will.

Octomore · 25/04/2022 11:30

IWentAwayIStayedAway · 25/04/2022 11:18

There has been fraud. Personally id contact police. Not for financial gain but so that aunt is investigated

It certainly sounds extremely dodgy, but there is no cast iron proof of fraud here.

OP - good luck getting legal advice

Madeintheseventies · 25/04/2022 11:30

HaveringWavering · 25/04/2022 11:24

surely the witnesses would have remembered if the the will had said your mother would have been left nothing? That’s quite a memorable thing.

It’s not that usual for witnesses to read the document that they are signing. Their only job is to watch and record that they saw the person sign. For basic witnessing the witness doesn’t even have to be able to verify that that person is who they say they are (eg they don’t have to ask to see any ID or anything).

OP, this sort of dispute is not they type of thing that “no win, no fee” lawyers will take on. Don’t waste your time with that.
what you need to do is find a solicitor specialising in probate and make an appointment. Before you go to the appointment, do as much work as you can to gather and present all the information - so make copies of all relevant documents, and put them in a file in chronological order. Type up a timeline of what happened and when (cross-referenced to the documents where appropriate). Take statements from the two witnesses recording what they told you (or, if they would not be willing to give statements, ask them to send you an email explaining what happened, or just write down as completely and as fully what they said to you and when).

Get as much information as you can about the value of the estate.

Then, once you have all this ready, send it to the solicitor in advance. The aim is to ensure that the paid-for time is used as efficiently as possible and enable them to give you a quote if there is a case to be pursued.

Good luck.

Thank you, that’s very helpful!

one more thing, when I looked at the grant of Probate (downloaded online) I noticed that my Grandad’s estate was valued at far less than it should’ve been worth.

His whole estate maybe would’ve come under the inheritance tax bracket, however, it’s strange that it was so undervalued, as his house was worth more alone than wha5 was written on the grant. Also, he should’ve had literally thousands in his bank as he never went anywhere and had a very good pension.

OP posts:
drpet49 · 25/04/2022 11:30

There has been fraud. Personally id contact police. Not for financial gain but so that aunt is investigated

^I would definitely do this. She can’t be allowed to get away with it.

GatoradeMeBitch · 25/04/2022 11:33

This is another reason to believe the Will was forged, as it shows my Aunt didn’t give a toss about her Parents if she could allow their house to get into a disgraceful state!

Arguably it could suggest that she didn't forge it as she seems to have no particular interest in the property.

If you want to go ahead with this, try to find a lawyer who specializes in this kind of case or has a good track record (you've been moved to legal so hopefully someone will know how to do this). Book an appointment to discuss it. I feel like it might not be the best move to represent yourselves. If it's about uncovering the truth and not about money, use a no-win no-fee lawyer then you won't have anything to worry about. If it is about money you may as well be honest about that. There's no shame in it.

Madeintheseventies · 25/04/2022 11:33

I’ve reported my post and asked for it to be moved

OP posts:
Octomore · 25/04/2022 11:35

Also, I think you may be confused about what "executing" a will is. Execution of a will can only take place after death.

I made my current will back in 2009 (it does need updating tbf). If I die tomorrow, it will be executed in 2022.

Do you mean signing the will? Does the will say that it was drafted in the 80s, then signed in the 90s?

HaveringWavering · 25/04/2022 11:36

Is it possible that the house was transferred to your aunt before his death, as part of advance planning to avoid care home fees? It is possible if done far enough in advance.

Octomore · 25/04/2022 11:38

Madeintheseventies · 25/04/2022 11:30

Thank you, that’s very helpful!

one more thing, when I looked at the grant of Probate (downloaded online) I noticed that my Grandad’s estate was valued at far less than it should’ve been worth.

His whole estate maybe would’ve come under the inheritance tax bracket, however, it’s strange that it was so undervalued, as his house was worth more alone than wha5 was written on the grant. Also, he should’ve had literally thousands in his bank as he never went anywhere and had a very good pension.

What facts are you using to support your estimate of what the estate should have been worth? There was a house price slump in the 90s - many, many properties were worth less than they had been in the 80s. And how do you know what was in his bank?

If you do decide to pursue a case, you'll need the facts to back all of this up.

Madeintheseventies · 25/04/2022 11:39

Octomore · 25/04/2022 11:25

I think you need legal advice, and while the whole thing seems very dodgy, some of your arguments are based on emotion and won't hold water.

E.g. If your aunt wrote the will for your grandfather, of course she wasn't surprised by its contents (i.e. your mum not being mentioned) - why would she be? That isn't proof that she forged his signature on the will. And it's entirely legal for anyone to write out a will for someone, to then be signed by that person.

Talk to a solicitor, and try to separate your (entirely understandable emotion) from the facts of the matter.

I see your point, but there’s a reason she didn’t want my Mum to know she’d written the Will herself, hence her showing my Mum a completely different typed Will.
If she was genuinely writing it on behalf of my Grandad, then there would’ve been no need to show a different Will to my Mum.

OP posts:
livinthedream1995 · 25/04/2022 11:39

Is this not fraud? And a criminal offence? Maybe I’m being thick but everything about this screams criminal to me.

Octomore · 25/04/2022 11:40

And I agree with a pp that letting the house fall into disrepair and disuse isn't consistent with your aunt being motivated by profit. She'd have sold or rented it out if that was the case, surely?

Octomore · 25/04/2022 11:43

livinthedream1995 · 25/04/2022 11:39

Is this not fraud? And a criminal offence? Maybe I’m being thick but everything about this screams criminal to me.

What offence is there proof of?

Drafting a will for someone is legal.
Anyone can witness a will and they don't have to read what the will says.
Letting a house fall into disrepair is also legal.

Yes, it's dodgy, but there is no concrete proof of anything. My grandma left a large sum of money to a conman, using a will drafted for her when she was on her deathbed - we were unable to challenge as no concrete proof of undue influence. The witnesses were people who worked at the hospice - apparently they saw nothing wrong in what was happening.

Unless you have some concrete evidence, challenging a will is extremely difficult.

Madeintheseventies · 25/04/2022 11:44

Octomore · 25/04/2022 11:38

What facts are you using to support your estimate of what the estate should have been worth? There was a house price slump in the 90s - many, many properties were worth less than they had been in the 80s. And how do you know what was in his bank?

If you do decide to pursue a case, you'll need the facts to back all of this up.

My Grandad died in 200* and I know for certain the worth of house prices then, especially as I was buying one myself at the time.

He also had a car ( knew the rough value) a caravan and a boat. I knew he was very comfortable financially as he used to tell me, not that I wanted to know! …but he had a great pension and never spent his money.

OP posts:
mumda · 25/04/2022 11:44

Witness it was a will or witness the creation of the will with the involvement of the now dead person?

Aprilx · 25/04/2022 11:46

Madeintheseventies · 25/04/2022 10:33

I did consider that, but hoped I’d get more traffic here.

There are plenty of people that read in legal and there will be more chance of someone with a legal background.

Eyerollerhighroller · 25/04/2022 11:46

Were you and your cousins born by the date of what’s being suggested to be the Will in the 80s?

chibcha · 25/04/2022 11:47

For those who say contact the police. This is a civil matter. The police will not do anything even if it is fraud (trust me been there!)

The probate office also will advise this is civil matter.

We went to a solicitor that specifically deals with Will disputes. We could not find a no win no fee solicitors that would take on our case, too risky for them.

We paid £275 per hour for our solicitor, so it can get expensive. We didn’t go to court thankfully. Our solicitor wanted to avoid that due to cost (but our case was very different).

It’s a risk but if you are confident enough to take it to court and have the finance to payout if you lose, go for it. It also depends how much your have to gain?

It will be hard to prove that fraud has taken place. The will also be questions to why it took so long to bring to court.
I hate the entire symptom, open to do much abuse and there is no help unless you pay.
Goodluck

Madeintheseventies · 25/04/2022 11:47

Octomore · 25/04/2022 11:40

And I agree with a pp that letting the house fall into disrepair and disuse isn't consistent with your aunt being motivated by profit. She'd have sold or rented it out if that was the case, surely?

Or maybe because deep down she knew she wasn’t solely entitled to it maybe?

She allowed my cousin to live there rent free for a number of years until they moved out. The house is still in my Grandads name, not that that’s illegal I don’t suppose, but still strange.

OP posts:
HaveringWavering · 25/04/2022 11:47

Octomore · 25/04/2022 11:35

Also, I think you may be confused about what "executing" a will is. Execution of a will can only take place after death.

I made my current will back in 2009 (it does need updating tbf). If I die tomorrow, it will be executed in 2022.

Do you mean signing the will? Does the will say that it was drafted in the 80s, then signed in the 90s?

No, OP is right- the formal expression for signing a document is “executing” it and the expression is used in relation to wills.

Of course, wills do also appoint people called executors who manage the formalities and distribute the assets after death. However, oddly enough, that is not all that often referred to as “Executing”, probably because if the potential for confusion. More likely you’d say “I am acting as Executor of the will” rather than “I am executing the will”.

And a person who signs is never ever called an “executor”! We’d refer to them as a signatory.

Madeintheseventies · 25/04/2022 11:48

Aprilx · 25/04/2022 11:46

There are plenty of people that read in legal and there will be more chance of someone with a legal background.

I’ve asked for it to be moved now,

OP posts:
Octomore · 25/04/2022 11:48

hence her showing my Mum a completely different typed Will. If she was genuinely writing it on behalf of my Grandad, then there would’ve been no need to show a different Will to my Mum.

Unless she sent your mum a copy of this typed will, the only proof of this is a memory of your mum's that is over 15 years old. Memories can be inaccurate, for many reasons, and any decent lawyer will be able to argue that. There will have been many documents being dealt with at the time, many of which were typed. The brain expects a will to be typed, so that's what it fills in for us in the memory. All humans do this to some extent - old memories are highly unreliable.

I think it is worth a chat with a solicitor, but challenging a will is not easy, even when the events are recent and you have current documentary evidence. I know from my own experience.

LumpyandBumps · 25/04/2022 11:49

If legal specific legal advice indicates that the matter is not worth pursuing, due to costs, etc would you be willing to confront your aunt about this?
She might just admit to changing the Will.
I realise that you are unlikely to get financial justice by taking this course of action but it might help your mother to know that her father didn’t actually exclude her.