Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Legal matters

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you have any legal concerns we suggest you consult a solicitor.

Can brother in law force us to sell?

258 replies

teaandbuns · 02/06/2019 11:51

This is long and complicated... apologies in advance, and thanks for reading.

My OH and I bought a house with my mother in law. We paid the mortgage, all bills, looked after everything including her. She provided the deposit through the sale of her own house. Her name was not on the deeds.

Four years on, MIL died. It happened rather suddenly, in late 2017. OH has one brother, resident in the US for donkey's years. They have never been close.

BIL wants his inheritance, which is mostly the proceeds from the sale of their mother's house, and is therefore tied up in our home. She owned about a 36 percent share of the place so we owe him about 18 percent of the total current value. There is no legal paperwork covering any of this (we did consult a solicitor before MIL died but he was making it all so convoluted there wouldn't have been anything left once his fees had been paid) but we are quite clear that we owe BIL that percentage and I don't think there's any argument on that front.

The problem is timing. BIL is well off (owns properties in New York), and as Brexit is obviously knocking the UK economy and house prices, we suggested waiting for things to improve before selling (he would of course benefit from any price improvement). He seemed OK with this at first but has since changed his mind.

We put the house on the market in March, as soon as we realised he didn't in fact want to wait. Things rapidly turned nasty (he doesn't believe we're really trying to sell and keeps suggesting we're up to all sorts, including having forced his mum to sign secret documents in our favour (not the case!)). We remortgaged as much as we could and released £60k, which we offered to give him while we try to raise the rest, but for some reason he refused that. (We owe him about £175k in total.)

He is demanding to be kept in the loop with the estate agents, to know about all viewings etc.

We are at our wits' end. We've never tried to lie or cheat. In fact we worked our bums off getting the house in perfect order for sale. There have been no proceedable offers, and all we're getting is demands to know when he'll be paid. I could of course show him all the emails I exchange with the agents but who is he - who stood back and watched me change his mother's colostomy bag when he visited while she was sick - to decide I can't be trusted and need to prove myself to him? It's bad enough having an unwanted house move hanging over you, plus the worry about where you'll go, without having this man barking demands and accusations from across the pond. You might wonder why if we have nothing to hide we don't just show him the correspondence - but I don't think it would end there. Judging by his behaviour so far, he'd be all over the agents, trying to get the price dropped and running the sale from afar.

We don't have much equity - the house needed a lot of work and we probably paid too much for it - and of course if we do manage to sell we will have to pay stamp duty and moving costs so we'll be limping off with not a lot to show for the last few years.

On top of that we'll be putting our eight-year-old daughter through a house move not long after she lost her live-in grandma - a major bereavement for her as she can't remember a time when they didn't live together and they were very close.

We put the house straight up for sale and have done our best. But all we've had in return is bullying, and it's making us feel like taking the house off the market.

My question is, do we actually HAVE to sell the house right now? The split is roughly 1/5 ownership to BIL vs 4/5 to us, so do we really have to do what he says and be bullied into selling at a terrible time? Even if we sell at the full asking price (which we won't) we'll be losing out a lot. Can he force us to accept a low offer or drop the price until someone eventually buys? What's the state of play?

At the moment we're jumping when BIL says jump - but is that right?

The estate is currently with a different solicitor who is looking after applying for probate, but she represents the estate (and both brothers are executors) so she wouldn't be able to act for us.

We have obviously reached a stage where we do need legal advice and will start looking for another solicitor on Monday. Meanwhile I wondered if anyone could offer their thoughts as I feel like I've read the whole internet and can't find anyone who's in the same situation as us!

Thank you.

OP posts:
teaandbuns · 02/06/2019 11:54

PS
There was nothing in her will about timings in terms of paying him back.

OP posts:
glenthebattleostrich · 02/06/2019 12:09

If her name was not on the deeds then legally do you actually owe him anything? You can't give away someone else's property.

I have no knowledge of the law but this struck me.

Namechangeforthiscancershit · 02/06/2019 12:12

There is a difference between legal ownership (ie what is on the deeds) and equitable. The MIL owned whatever % of the house so the BIL does need to be paid.

In terms of timing it seems that you are being very reasonable to me📥

hormonesorDHbeingadick · 02/06/2019 12:12

I would use some of that equity that you released to pay for a solicitor.

Namechangeforthiscancershit · 02/06/2019 12:13

No idea what the email emoji is!

There wouldn't be anything in the Will unless it was to delay repayment.

IWannaSeeHowItEnds · 02/06/2019 12:17

If your mil spent her money when alive and it's not sitting in a bank account somewhere then I don't see as how this is his inheritance. You could argue that the money was gifted to you, in exchange for you housing her and taking on all the responsibility for her care. My attitude would be fuck him - I'd not sell the house and he wouldn't see a penny. Get legal advice asap and don't concede that you owe him anything. Presumably if his mum wanted him to have it she would have had legal papers drawn up to say so.
If it isn't legally written down, he has no automatic entitlement to anything. You can also include in your share all the money you spent improving the house - he has no legal right to benefit from your investment.

Namechangeforthiscancershit · 02/06/2019 12:22

The BIL does have legal right to his share of the deposit. And the OP says herself: we are quite clear that we owe BIL that percentage and I don't think there's any argument on that front

On timing, he is being an arse.

AnchorDownDeepBreath · 02/06/2019 12:25

You're all agreed that he has a moral right to 18%. Does he have a legal right? Was he officially left 18% of the house?

If there's little paperwork, it will be worth exploring his legal entitlement. I'm not suggesting that you don't pay him, but that to answer your question on what he has the power to do, you need to know what he is actually entitled to and what is a gentleman's agreement.

woollyheart · 02/06/2019 12:28

Legally it appears that BIL is not entitled to anything. MIL spent the proceeds from her home in her lifetime. She is not on the deeds of your home, so she didn't intend to put your home at risk.

He is probably becoming jumpy because he knows that legally he could get nothing except a share of her funds at the time she died. He is probably worried that your intention to pay him a share might diminish as time goes by.

It is morally fair that you might share half the deposit with him. But he needs to be patient and avoid making you homeless. Could you pay him in instalments?

Walkamileinmyshoesbeforeujudge · 02/06/2019 12:31

God loves a trier.....

Namechangeforthiscancershit · 02/06/2019 12:32

Equitable interest is not a gentleman's agreement, nor is it the case that BIL isn't entitled to half.

I agree that you should be separately represented if the value of the house is enough.

IWannaSeeHowItEnds · 02/06/2019 12:33

I'm not even sure he has a moral entitlement if he lived abroad whilst OP and her DH did all the looking after of mil. I'd seriously fight this. No one has rights to their parents money. I bet mil would not want your home to be at risk.

runoutofnamechanges · 02/06/2019 12:38

If your late MIL was not on the deeds, how was the deposit she paid documented? Was it a loan? Or a gift? Is there a deed of trust ring fencing the money she put in?

I'm not a lawyer but my grandmother moved in with my parents and we took advice on setting things up properly to prevent this situation arising. If she is not on the deeds and there is no deed of trust or any other documentation, I'm not sure that legally your MIL ever owned a part share of the house for your BIL to inherit.

When you got the mortgage, did your MIL have to sign anything to say that the deposit was a gift? Mortgage lenders sometimes require that.You really need proper legal advice. If the money was a documented loan (which you would have to pay back to the estate) that is a very different situation from your MIL owning a share of the house (and, therefore, a share of the equity too) which is different from if a deed of trust sets out exactly what happens in this situation, or if there is paperwork showing it as a gift or no paperwork at all.

Obviously it is morally right that your BIL gets half of the money but legally he might not be entitled to it. I wonder if his big hurry is that has taken legal advice and realises that he is on shaky ground if there are no legal agreements about the deposit.

TroysMammy · 02/06/2019 12:41

My exh's grandmother rented her property from the council and under the Right to Buy scheme we had ownership and a mortgage in our 3 names but she never contributed to the mortgage and lived with us rent free. The grandmother drew up a will leaving her share of the house to her grandson and myself as she reckoned her grabby son would come sniffing around looking for his share. When she died he did indeed do what she thought he would but he didn't have a leg to stand on.

Did she have a will mentioning what would happen to her share of the house?

GummyGoddess · 02/06/2019 12:44

Honestly I would speak to a solicitor. If he has no legal right then he can go away. If you hadn't taken your mother in law in, how long would that money have lasted in a care home of £1,000 per week?

Only an unpleasant person would decide to turf a grieving family out of their home.

Most wills where inheritance is in the form of a house that someone lives in state that the beneficiary will get there share only once the person has either moved or died. They aren't forced to sell.

mummmy2017 · 02/06/2019 12:48

Hope you get good advice.
I don't think you owe him anything.
Also you may have a claim for wages for caring for your mother in law and her share of utilities and food that you have paid..
To be honest I don't think you will lose much if you fall out with someone you never see.

stucknoue · 02/06/2019 12:49

It sounds like legally you owe him nothing. If mil was not on the deeds or mortgage then her will has no claim on the property. I would consult a solicitor and have a letter sent to him to this effect saying that £60k is the residual left after costs

Amibeingdaft81 · 02/06/2019 12:50

we did consult a solicitor before MIL died but he was making it all so convoluted there wouldn't have been anything left once his fees had been paid)

This is odd. Wouldn’t have been complicated.
And there can’t be much equity involved if sols fees for a small job would have wiped most of it

NoSquirrels · 02/06/2019 12:55

What does the will say about the money she gave you from the deposit and the timing of repaying it to BIL?

Legally it doesn’t appear he has any interest. Morally is different, but as he’s acting like an arsehole anyway I wouldn’t be falling over myself to move and repay him.

NoSquirrels · 02/06/2019 12:56

I also absolutely would not be paying the full 100% of fees etc from your share of the sale. He gets his when all the costs involved in selling have been calculated and split proportionally.

Jaxhog · 02/06/2019 12:59

If her name was not on the deeds then legally do you actually owe him anything? You can't give away someone else's property.

This is the point really. You (and he) may feel you morally owe him something, but he has no legal claim. Don't sell up until YOU want to. Then, by all means give him a share if you still feel you want to.

crimsonlake · 02/06/2019 13:01

Op you wrote exactly same post word for word months ago as I remember it well ? Have you still not sought legal advice in all this time or moved anything on at all?

Daenerys77 · 02/06/2019 13:01

If your mother in law's name was not on the deeds and her interest in the house was not registered as a charge on the property, I don't see how she could have been the owner of the house or part of it. A person cannot bequeath what she does not have. So there is a very good chance that none of the value of your house will form any part of your mother in law's estate. Your brother in law may have other entitlements under the will eg to half (or whatever proportion is stated in the will) of whatever she had in bank accounts, shares etc. You need to ascertain what is actually in the estate before any decisions are made about selling the house. There are situations in which a part owner can force a sale, but this may not be one of them.

You have obviously taken the view that your brother in law has a moral right to some of the value of the house and that is very creditable, but in the absence of a power to force the sale, you would be justified in saying he will get it when it suits you to move and not before. What about the years you spent caring for your mother in law-does that not entitle you, morally, to an improved share in the profit from the house? And remember it it not just a capital asset, it is your home.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 02/06/2019 13:01

This is one instance where if he has no legal claim I'd be taking the house off the market and telling him to jump.

soulrider · 02/06/2019 13:05

How long ago did you purchase this property? Is there an inheritance tax issue if you say that MIL gifted you this money? Surely you were asked about this at the time of purchase about the deposit origin that would give you some idea of what the legal position actually is

Swipe left for the next trending thread