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Can brother in law force us to sell?

258 replies

teaandbuns · 02/06/2019 11:51

This is long and complicated... apologies in advance, and thanks for reading.

My OH and I bought a house with my mother in law. We paid the mortgage, all bills, looked after everything including her. She provided the deposit through the sale of her own house. Her name was not on the deeds.

Four years on, MIL died. It happened rather suddenly, in late 2017. OH has one brother, resident in the US for donkey's years. They have never been close.

BIL wants his inheritance, which is mostly the proceeds from the sale of their mother's house, and is therefore tied up in our home. She owned about a 36 percent share of the place so we owe him about 18 percent of the total current value. There is no legal paperwork covering any of this (we did consult a solicitor before MIL died but he was making it all so convoluted there wouldn't have been anything left once his fees had been paid) but we are quite clear that we owe BIL that percentage and I don't think there's any argument on that front.

The problem is timing. BIL is well off (owns properties in New York), and as Brexit is obviously knocking the UK economy and house prices, we suggested waiting for things to improve before selling (he would of course benefit from any price improvement). He seemed OK with this at first but has since changed his mind.

We put the house on the market in March, as soon as we realised he didn't in fact want to wait. Things rapidly turned nasty (he doesn't believe we're really trying to sell and keeps suggesting we're up to all sorts, including having forced his mum to sign secret documents in our favour (not the case!)). We remortgaged as much as we could and released £60k, which we offered to give him while we try to raise the rest, but for some reason he refused that. (We owe him about £175k in total.)

He is demanding to be kept in the loop with the estate agents, to know about all viewings etc.

We are at our wits' end. We've never tried to lie or cheat. In fact we worked our bums off getting the house in perfect order for sale. There have been no proceedable offers, and all we're getting is demands to know when he'll be paid. I could of course show him all the emails I exchange with the agents but who is he - who stood back and watched me change his mother's colostomy bag when he visited while she was sick - to decide I can't be trusted and need to prove myself to him? It's bad enough having an unwanted house move hanging over you, plus the worry about where you'll go, without having this man barking demands and accusations from across the pond. You might wonder why if we have nothing to hide we don't just show him the correspondence - but I don't think it would end there. Judging by his behaviour so far, he'd be all over the agents, trying to get the price dropped and running the sale from afar.

We don't have much equity - the house needed a lot of work and we probably paid too much for it - and of course if we do manage to sell we will have to pay stamp duty and moving costs so we'll be limping off with not a lot to show for the last few years.

On top of that we'll be putting our eight-year-old daughter through a house move not long after she lost her live-in grandma - a major bereavement for her as she can't remember a time when they didn't live together and they were very close.

We put the house straight up for sale and have done our best. But all we've had in return is bullying, and it's making us feel like taking the house off the market.

My question is, do we actually HAVE to sell the house right now? The split is roughly 1/5 ownership to BIL vs 4/5 to us, so do we really have to do what he says and be bullied into selling at a terrible time? Even if we sell at the full asking price (which we won't) we'll be losing out a lot. Can he force us to accept a low offer or drop the price until someone eventually buys? What's the state of play?

At the moment we're jumping when BIL says jump - but is that right?

The estate is currently with a different solicitor who is looking after applying for probate, but she represents the estate (and both brothers are executors) so she wouldn't be able to act for us.

We have obviously reached a stage where we do need legal advice and will start looking for another solicitor on Monday. Meanwhile I wondered if anyone could offer their thoughts as I feel like I've read the whole internet and can't find anyone who's in the same situation as us!

Thank you.

OP posts:
LadyRannaldini · 02/06/2019 13:05

She gave you a gift of money, in return you have cared for her for however many years, I can't see that he has any claim, it's no different to her spending her money on a care home.
Maybe he can quantify his share of caring for his mother.

Berthatydfil · 02/06/2019 13:06

If she had sold her house and moved into a care home and paid for her care - (by the sounds of it that’s what you were doing ) there would be less than the original sales proceeds left - if anything at all when she died.
What would he have done then - sued the care home for his apparent inheritance - of course not it would have been spent and the same thing applies here!
The money was spent in her lifetime towards her care. The fact she sadly didn’t live as long as she had hoped for is irrelevant, while she was alive the money was hers to spend as she wished and that’s what she did.
If she had wanted her other son to benefit she would have gifted him some money at the time, or taken legal steps to secure his inheritance but she didn’t.
Op take some legal advice - I think you can’t be made to sell your home by him.

SavoyCabbage · 02/06/2019 13:06

You absolutely need to go and see a solicitor no matter how much it costs. This is a big deal and not seeing a solicitor could cost you your home. You should not just be stumping up £175000 because he is making you feel like you’ve ripped off an old lady. Which is how his strategy is coming off to me.

Your main question is ‘do you have to sell the house now?’ and the answer might be no. But you are being pushed into acting hastily because BIL is making you feel guilty. It’s a classic scam tactic.

SaveKevin · 02/06/2019 13:08

Parking the fact he doesn’t really have a claim,
don’t forget that fees and stamp duty would need to come out of his share too.
It’s very complicated and you do need legal advice, you saved him losing his inheritance to care Home fees, you cared for his mother, you improved the house for her benefit as well as his. He should feel beholden to you not the other way.
Get legal advice

CoolCarrie · 02/06/2019 13:08

Send the shit a bill for all the car, food etc that you provided for his mother, and make sure it adds up to the same amount he thinks you own him!
He should like a right cheeky fucker OP, and I certainly wouldn’t let him dictate your family situation. Get independent advice about this, take the house off the market and don’t move an inch until you want to.

Desmondo2016 · 02/06/2019 13:09

His behaviour is a separate issue to what you are doing financially. I would carry on trying to sell the house and warn him to stop harassing you, getting the police involved if he continues.

HazelBite · 02/06/2019 13:10

If MIL died within a few years of a "gift" of a house deposit I think BIL could be entitled, a lot depends on what her will says.
OP don't rely on what anyone says on here but get some legal advice asap
'As your BIL is also an executor this complicates matters.
I sympathise OP my DIL had a co-executor in the US when she was dealing with her late fathers estate, and had also had to look after him as he was terminally ill for some years. There was little empathy as to what DIL and DS had been through.

Daenerys77 · 02/06/2019 13:11

PS and in your position, I would take the house off the market. You clearly don't want to sell and having to deal with estate agents, viewings etc is adding to your stress at this point.

teaandbuns · 02/06/2019 13:12

Thanks so much everyone for all the replies. There is nothing in her will about timing of repaying the loan - in fact she effectively died intestate as we couldn't persuade her to write a will and ended up drafting one for her because we were so worried people could think we would try to nick her money. But the will we drew up apparently isn't valid. The solicitors doing the probate say that it makes no difference as the will stated a 50/50 split and intestacy would lead to exactly the same thing, so that's what they are going for.

The solicitor who was originally looking after this has just retired and passed it over to another, but I remember her saying months ago that the onus would be on us to prove she DIDN'T intend for us to pay BIL back, rather than the other way around. In other words I think he is legally entitled to it as well as morally. At least that's what she thought.

OP posts:
Foxmuffin · 02/06/2019 13:12

If your MIL is not on the title to the property and this arrangement was not documented by a trust deed or similar there is no obligation for you to pay your BIL anything. Nice that you are, but you don’t have to.

SaveKevin · 02/06/2019 13:13

Rather than looking at her investment as a percentage of the house value now, I’d look at it as what she put in at the time. That’s what she gifted you. The rise is partly due to your upkeep and investment.

But you need legal advice. Not some sofa sitting mum.

teaandbuns · 02/06/2019 13:13

For clarity, the solicitor I'm referring to is the one looking after the probate side of things.

OP posts:
Coronapop · 02/06/2019 13:14

What did MIL's will say exactly? The fact that your MIL was not on the deeds would appear to be in your favour. Best to get legal advice not ask random internet people.

SorryDidISayThatOutLoud · 02/06/2019 13:14

What did the will say? If MIL died in 2017 then perhaps she didn't change her will?

My friends FIL left a will to say the house would be sold and the proceeds go between the DGC. All other savings went to friend, the DD. But the house was sold for funds to look after him in a care home, and the rest was put in an account to manage it from. When the FIL died, the will failed because there was no longer a house to sell. So friend became sole inheritor as she was bequeathed all other money. It doesn't matter that it was previously the money that came from the house. The will stated the house should be sold and it had been sold in FIL's lifetime so it all failed.

I am thinking you do not have to sell your house or pay your BIL anything. Your MIL sold her house and she cannot leave money to someone else if she was not on the deeds of the house her money was tied up in.

endofthelinefinally · 02/06/2019 13:14

If she had been in a care home she would have paid around £800 per week for her care and accommodation.
She decided to invest in her accommodation with you as her live in carer.

BIL is being greedy, selfish and ungrateful.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 02/06/2019 13:15

Fuck morally at this point. You are actually going to be out of pocket. Do what you can to protect yourselves and the financial situation you would have been in if you had not entered this agreement in the first place (not to mention the care you provided).

HollowTalk · 02/06/2019 13:15

He shouldn't just get that percentage and no costs, though. You have paid into the house, making it worth much more than it was originally. That has to be taken into account, as does the cost of a solicitor and estate agent and other sale costs.

wonkidonki · 02/06/2019 13:15

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Fairenuff · 02/06/2019 13:16

No I don't think you have to pay him anything. You do need legal advice but you should insist that the money was a gift in exchange for care. Nothing in writing but that was the intention.

Keep it simple. MIL gifted you x amount in exchange for living with you. You used the money to buy a house to suitably accommodate her wishes. It was a verbal agreement. You cared for her until she died.

TemporaryPermanent · 02/06/2019 13:16

This is a moment where there is no substitute for lawyering up. You need to know where you stand. Yes it's going to cost. I would get three quotes and go with the solicitor you like best ratger than the cheapest.

Usual advice to check your house insurance for legal services cover, though sometimes things are excluded even if you have cover.

I haven't quite understood if you are executors of your MIL's estate? In which case consulting a solicitor might be a reasonable expense chargeanle to the estate to make sure her wishes are carried out under the law (disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer). Doesn't help with paying for it up front but at least if you had yo take out a loan or whatever you should be able to pay it back if so.

I found that the gov.com pages about probate were very good and clear. There may be some useful info there but you must get legal advice asap.

MzHz · 02/06/2019 13:17

He can’t force you to do anything

Take the house off the market.

He has zero rights or evidence that you owe him a bean.

Breathe! He’s a bully and one without a leg to stand on.

PanamaPattie · 02/06/2019 13:21

If MIL died intestate or even with a valid will, the house is yours as she wasn't named on the deeds and therefore the house is not part of her estate.

Disclaimer. Not legally qualified.

IHeartArya · 02/06/2019 13:22

Please get independent legal advice ASAP. Do not engage with BIL any further.

IHeartArya · 02/06/2019 13:25

Also if MIL name isn’t on the deeds I fail to see what your BIL is actually entitled to? Is there a trust deed somewhere. I’m thinking your MIL know your BIL was a CF & that’s why she’s not on the deeds!

Flump9 · 02/06/2019 13:29

It depends how the deposit for the house was handled. We've provided the deposit for a family member and had to sign something to say that this was a gift and we would have no stake in the property.

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