Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Legal matters

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you have any legal concerns we suggest you consult a solicitor.

Can brother in law force us to sell?

258 replies

teaandbuns · 02/06/2019 11:51

This is long and complicated... apologies in advance, and thanks for reading.

My OH and I bought a house with my mother in law. We paid the mortgage, all bills, looked after everything including her. She provided the deposit through the sale of her own house. Her name was not on the deeds.

Four years on, MIL died. It happened rather suddenly, in late 2017. OH has one brother, resident in the US for donkey's years. They have never been close.

BIL wants his inheritance, which is mostly the proceeds from the sale of their mother's house, and is therefore tied up in our home. She owned about a 36 percent share of the place so we owe him about 18 percent of the total current value. There is no legal paperwork covering any of this (we did consult a solicitor before MIL died but he was making it all so convoluted there wouldn't have been anything left once his fees had been paid) but we are quite clear that we owe BIL that percentage and I don't think there's any argument on that front.

The problem is timing. BIL is well off (owns properties in New York), and as Brexit is obviously knocking the UK economy and house prices, we suggested waiting for things to improve before selling (he would of course benefit from any price improvement). He seemed OK with this at first but has since changed his mind.

We put the house on the market in March, as soon as we realised he didn't in fact want to wait. Things rapidly turned nasty (he doesn't believe we're really trying to sell and keeps suggesting we're up to all sorts, including having forced his mum to sign secret documents in our favour (not the case!)). We remortgaged as much as we could and released £60k, which we offered to give him while we try to raise the rest, but for some reason he refused that. (We owe him about £175k in total.)

He is demanding to be kept in the loop with the estate agents, to know about all viewings etc.

We are at our wits' end. We've never tried to lie or cheat. In fact we worked our bums off getting the house in perfect order for sale. There have been no proceedable offers, and all we're getting is demands to know when he'll be paid. I could of course show him all the emails I exchange with the agents but who is he - who stood back and watched me change his mother's colostomy bag when he visited while she was sick - to decide I can't be trusted and need to prove myself to him? It's bad enough having an unwanted house move hanging over you, plus the worry about where you'll go, without having this man barking demands and accusations from across the pond. You might wonder why if we have nothing to hide we don't just show him the correspondence - but I don't think it would end there. Judging by his behaviour so far, he'd be all over the agents, trying to get the price dropped and running the sale from afar.

We don't have much equity - the house needed a lot of work and we probably paid too much for it - and of course if we do manage to sell we will have to pay stamp duty and moving costs so we'll be limping off with not a lot to show for the last few years.

On top of that we'll be putting our eight-year-old daughter through a house move not long after she lost her live-in grandma - a major bereavement for her as she can't remember a time when they didn't live together and they were very close.

We put the house straight up for sale and have done our best. But all we've had in return is bullying, and it's making us feel like taking the house off the market.

My question is, do we actually HAVE to sell the house right now? The split is roughly 1/5 ownership to BIL vs 4/5 to us, so do we really have to do what he says and be bullied into selling at a terrible time? Even if we sell at the full asking price (which we won't) we'll be losing out a lot. Can he force us to accept a low offer or drop the price until someone eventually buys? What's the state of play?

At the moment we're jumping when BIL says jump - but is that right?

The estate is currently with a different solicitor who is looking after applying for probate, but she represents the estate (and both brothers are executors) so she wouldn't be able to act for us.

We have obviously reached a stage where we do need legal advice and will start looking for another solicitor on Monday. Meanwhile I wondered if anyone could offer their thoughts as I feel like I've read the whole internet and can't find anyone who's in the same situation as us!

Thank you.

OP posts:
MrsBertBibby · 02/06/2019 18:14

Boggles, stop pretending you know anything about the law. You really don't.

JaynePoole · 02/06/2019 18:19

And now he's forcing us to sell up in the middle of Brexit.

Why are you persisting with this drama? You don't need to sell. He can't force you to sell.

Collaborate · 02/06/2019 18:19

FFS so many have responded here who seem to be in complete ignorance of the law.

For the avoidance of doubt:

  1. OP has stated very clearly that MIL had an interest in the property, and there is ample evidence they acknowledged this in her lifetime.
  1. If you don't believe me, google "resulting trust" and read for yourself.
  1. The solicitor is therefore correct that the onus would be on OP and husband to prove MiL had no interest.
  1. This is not AIBU. Commentary on what is "morally right" is a nonsense. By whose moral code? This is Legal Matters.

OP - you are doing all you can by marketing the property for sale. You were very generous in paying over the £60k. I hope you got a proper acknowledgment from BiL - did that serve to reduce his % share?

bevelino · 02/06/2019 18:20

The issues OP describes is not straightforward and we don’t have all the facts, which is why the OP needs legal advice in real life. We don’t know if the bil was aware of the gift at the time it was given and if it was the intention of his mother that he was to recover his share of the deposit, had he known he might have asked his mother to settle a Deed of Trust.

It seems the mil provided a huge deposit and the solicitor undertaking the conveyancing should have enquired about the source of the deposit and advised about a Deed of Trust but the solicitor did not. If on the other hand the deposit was in exchange for care, love and support then the solicitor should have advised OP that this needed to be documented in order to avoid the problem she is now facing.

For those who say to OP, don’t sell or give bil anything, please place yourself in the position of the bil. If he didn’t know about the gift when it was given and it represented all his dm’s assets why should one dc benefit but not the other.

The OP has acknowledged that her bil is entitled to half of the deposit and she now now needs to let bil have his share in a peaceful way, and away from the court if at all possible.

mummmy2017 · 02/06/2019 18:28

I know for a fact, that if this is classed as a gift then it will have to declair, as under 7 years there could the IHT to pay... Ask.
If the MIL is not on the deeds it is not her house...
If your claiming she has invested , then you need to work out all the costs and take that off the investment, before it is split....
Ask if you can charge for looking after her.....

JaynePoole · 02/06/2019 18:34

For those who say to OP, don’t sell or give bil anything, please place yourself in the position of the bil. If he didn’t know about the gift when it was given and it represented all his dm’s assets why should one dc benefit but not the other.

Because it's not part of the deceased's estate?

OhDearGodLookAtThisMess · 02/06/2019 18:37

Sorry to harp on about this, but had you not looked after your mil, she would have had to finance care herself, and if that had been the case, there would have been not much left of her estate at all.
But I don't know how you could prove that, or if you even wish to.

TeacupDrama · 02/06/2019 18:41

it is not an outright gift as MIL continued to benefit as not paying rent which further complicates matters

bevelino · 02/06/2019 19:03

@JaynePool you have taken part of my post upon which to comment.

If it was the intention of the mother that one son would recover half of the deposit that she gave to his brother to buy a property upon her death the solicitor handling the conveyancing should have ensured that this would happen by settling a Deed of Trust. If on the other hand the deposit was a pure gift then the solicitor should have documented the mother’s wishes. However this is of no consequence as OP has already acknowledged that her bil is entitled to his share of the original deposit.

The position is far from straightforward and I can see both sides of the argument.

mummmy2017 · 02/06/2019 19:05

Yes, but it seems the solicitor would need a letter from MIL to confirm where and what the money was..
A gift or a loan...
The mortgage company would not have wanted it to be a loan as it would have meant a charge on the house...
Ask your solicitor if MIL wrote a gift letter....

JaynePoole · 02/06/2019 19:45

@JaynePool you have taken part of my post upon which to comment.

Yes, the part I was asking a question about Confused

The most puzzling part of this is why the OP doesn't seek legal advice.

PrimalLass · 02/06/2019 20:24

please place yourself in the position of the bil

The rich one who visited his mother twice in 30 years?

AlwaysCheddar · 02/06/2019 22:13

Stop now, see a decent solicitor as I think you should see him in court! What a tight dick.

plantingandpotting · 03/06/2019 10:28

If the decision to sell is hinged on property prices bouncing back to where they were 4 years ago, we're talking years, not months. I don't blame your BiL for feeling edgy/keen to resolve the matter.

You say there's no real relationship between the brothers, so it's no great surprise he's being business like about getting his inheritance.

From his PoV, you've still benefitted financially from a 40% deposit against your £1m home for a good few years, and will continue to benefit from what is now his 175k for as long as you delay the sale.

Emotions just can't factor into financial situations such as this, and so as unjust as it feels, both his (perceived) financial state and your view of his relationship with his mother are irrelevant.

Hope the legal advice makes your position clearer today, OP.

IHeartArya · 03/06/2019 10:36

The deposit may have been 36% but his share, if any, us only 18%. I would argue due to his attitude & as he did none of the care he can go whistle. The op & her dh don’t want to though. Good for them. Had he a better attitude I’d have been more amenable!

SheeshazAZ09 · 03/06/2019 12:19

@JaynePoole Yes, I recently consulted two solicitors in different towns who didn't charge for the first appointment in both cases. They both said they only charged for drawing up documents.

Disfordarkchocolate · 03/06/2019 12:33

If your MIL owned 36% of the house and you only have to pay your BIL 18% you should be able to pay him his share from your 18% increase in the share of the property.

mummmy2017 · 03/06/2019 22:22

But there is no legal deed on the house so MIL. Does not own it ..
The money then was it classed as a loan or a gift.....

Mummyoflittledragon · 04/06/2019 13:38

You haven’t addressed the comments about your mils living expenses and associated costs.

If you are to give your bil money / return the 18%, a number of costs could probably legitimately be claimed. Your mil should have contributed to living expenses. And contributed 36% toward the mortgage. And contributed to the works on the house. And contributed to solicitors fees, mortgage arrangements fees etc etc. Therefore you should try to reduce this amount and settle. And if you sell, her estate should pay the full amount of all sellers fees as the sale is forced and you should not be penalised.

You need to make any sale as unattractive to your bil as possible.

How much money did she actually put down? I’m not talking 18% of the current value.

It is a shame that you have corresponded with your bil. This strengthens his case for his inheritance.

Disford
Rtt. I understand what you’re getting at. But the op isn’t actually getting that 18%. They probably have a maximum mortgage based on earnings and used the mils deposit. So they’d have to remortgage.

teaandbuns · 04/06/2019 17:37

Thanks again for all the replies. Sorry I haven't responded to all questions – hard to keep track. There is no letter from MIL, definitely. So no expression of whether it was a loan or a gift, from her POV. However it is mentioned in her will as 'my share of DS1s house'. There is a papertrail proving that we understood it to be a loan repayable after her death. But we never discussed timing, and there is nothing about timing in writing.

I said in the original post that I was planning to consult a solicitor to see if BIL can actually force us to sell without further delay. I've now done that - at least, got a recommendation and made contact.

I'm awaiting a response. I'll come back here and let you all know what she says.

OP posts:
IWannaSeeHowItEnds · 04/06/2019 17:46

Irrespective of what is says in her will, she can't give away something she doesn't own. At best I'd imagine bil could take you to court for his 50% of the original loan. The other 50% of that loan would be your husband's inheritance. Can't see a court forcing you to sell a house that mil had no legal ownership of and bil certainly has no entitlement to any share of value you have added by home improvement.

RandomMess · 04/06/2019 18:00

The court process to force sale for inheritance purposes when other owners are still resident is very lengthy and costly.

Parents are in this position and outcome was that it's not worth pursuing and to just wait until the occupier eventually moved out.

Thanks
TeacupDrama · 04/06/2019 18:40

you have to pay DH's brother but how much depends on your lawyer make sure you tell him everything, re receipts for improvements as if you paid for the improvements that is not part of BIL inheritance if your MIL paid towards improvements then the increasing equity is also part of her share
how much of increase in equity of the whole house is due to rising prices and how much to improvements?
costs come out of the estate before DH and BIL share what is left of the late MIL 36%
Courts are generally reluctant to make people quickly homeless so though he can eventually force sale he can't force a quick fire sale ( well he maybe able to a year or two down the line)
my father had a similar situation his fathers house was to be split between 4 of them but 2 of my aunts lived in the house with my grandfather
my father was advised that he would be unlikely to get an eviction as they had been habitually resident for past 50+ years the most he could hope for was a share of market rent, as he and the other sibling were already adequately housed, now he would never have taken siblings to court in fact he didn't so he did not inherit from his father until his siblings died, he was over 90 then
because it is your one and only home it is a lot more difficult than if it was a jointly owned second home, however if you own another property elsewhere he could probably force the sale faster

Halo84 · 04/06/2019 19:32

If the paper trail is a loan, it would seem you owe him half the downpayment. Or, that’s an argument, at the very least.

teaandbuns · 04/06/2019 20:05

In our minds, we absolutely do owe him his half of her money, plus uplift. It's just about timing.

OP posts:
Swipe left for the next trending thread