Can brother in law force us to sell?

[teaandbuns]

This is long and complicated... apologies in advance, and thanks for reading.

My OH and I bought a house with my mother in law. We paid the mortgage, all bills, looked after everything including her. She provided the deposit through the sale of her own house. Her name was not on the deeds.

Four years on, MIL died. It happened rather suddenly, in late 2017. OH has one brother, resident in the US for donkey's years. They have never been close.

BIL wants his inheritance, which is mostly the proceeds from the sale of their mother's house, and is therefore tied up in our home. She owned about a 36 percent share of the place so we owe him about 18 percent of the total current value. There is no legal paperwork covering any of this (we did consult a solicitor before MIL died but he was making it all so convoluted there wouldn't have been anything left once his fees had been paid) but we are quite clear that we owe BIL that percentage and I don't think there's any argument on that front.

The problem is timing. BIL is well off (owns properties in New York), and as Brexit is obviously knocking the UK economy and house prices, we suggested waiting for things to improve before selling (he would of course benefit from any price improvement). He seemed OK with this at first but has since changed his mind.

We put the house on the market in March, as soon as we realised he didn't in fact want to wait. Things rapidly turned nasty (he doesn't believe we're really trying to sell and keeps suggesting we're up to all sorts, including having forced his mum to sign secret documents in our favour (not the case!)). We remortgaged as much as we could and released £60k, which we offered to give him while we try to raise the rest, but for some reason he refused that. (We owe him about £175k in total.)

He is demanding to be kept in the loop with the estate agents, to know about all viewings etc.

We are at our wits' end. We've never tried to lie or cheat. In fact we worked our bums off getting the house in perfect order for sale. There have been no proceedable offers, and all we're getting is demands to know when he'll be paid. I could of course show him all the emails I exchange with the agents but who is he - who stood back and watched me change his mother's colostomy bag when he visited while she was sick - to decide I can't be trusted and need to prove myself to him? It's bad enough having an unwanted house move hanging over you, plus the worry about where you'll go, without having this man barking demands and accusations from across the pond. You might wonder why if we have nothing to hide we don't just show him the correspondence - but I don't think it would end there. Judging by his behaviour so far, he'd be all over the agents, trying to get the price dropped and running the sale from afar.

We don't have much equity - the house needed a lot of work and we probably paid too much for it - and of course if we do manage to sell we will have to pay stamp duty and moving costs so we'll be limping off with not a lot to show for the last few years.

On top of that we'll be putting our eight-year-old daughter through a house move not long after she lost her live-in grandma - a major bereavement for her as she can't remember a time when they didn't live together and they were very close.

We put the house straight up for sale and have done our best. But all we've had in return is bullying, and it's making us feel like taking the house off the market.

My question is, do we actually HAVE to sell the house right now? The split is roughly 1/5 ownership to BIL vs 4/5 to us, so do we really have to do what he says and be bullied into selling at a terrible time? Even if we sell at the full asking price (which we won't) we'll be losing out a lot. Can he force us to accept a low offer or drop the price until someone eventually buys? What's the state of play?

At the moment we're jumping when BIL says jump - but is that right?

The estate is currently with a different solicitor who is looking after applying for probate, but she represents the estate (and both brothers are executors) so she wouldn't be able to act for us.

We have obviously reached a stage where we do need legal advice and will start looking for another solicitor on Monday. Meanwhile I wondered if anyone could offer their thoughts as I feel like I've read the whole internet and can't find anyone who's in the same situation as us!

Thank you.

This is exactly why I always advice anyone on here who is considering some property scheme with family to steer well clear. It always leads to trouble.

I agree with PPs, you need to get proper legal advice. In the mean time, don’t let yourself get rushed along by him.

Personally, I would never expect a penny of inheritance from anyone

This is a very sound philosophy. Nobody in my family expected any inheritance so when it came, not once but twice, it was small but we were all pleasantly surprised and are still friends afterwards.

A friend of mine has just been roundly insulted by her siblings that she adored, because they suspect her of trying to do them out of their inheritance. So sad and so horrible.

My mum died a few weeks ago.

I think morally you are obliged to pay your bil 18% and to do so as fast as you can. The 18% might represent equity or an equal amount of love for both brothers from their mother. What bil has doesn't matter. Some of the worst behaviour can come from hurt and this is your DH's sibling.

If you live in a house worth £875,000 you should be able to get something decent for 4/5 of that value Even if that's not how it will work, you're still in a better position than most. It sucks that you need to sell to do the right thing but you know your bil is entitled to 18% and if wants it now then it's ok for him to voice that. I wonder what his side would be, he clearly doesn't trust you and your DH to do the right thing.

My siblings and I have very different financial situations, one of us is very well off, another did the lion's share of care someone else was low contact and another had a huge amount of assistance. Regardless, it's all been worked out fair and square. My immediate family are my DC and DH but my wider family matter too. My DH's family are a pretty selfish bunch and I don't have much time fro them. They are my DH's family though and I'd never want to get in between them over money.

This thread might give you the validation you need to act selfishly but again you know your bil is entitled to 18%. He and your DH need to come to an agreement.
This is a sad situation all around.

If there's nothing in writing about her owning any of the house the don't pay the wanker a penny and keep the house. Who cares if he goes nc?

I only read the first page but surely he gets nothing and the sum the mother in law paid was a gift to the only child who showed her any attention. She died intestate presumably and the sum paid for your house wa sa gift not a loan so the other sibling gets nothing?

However it sounds like you have already conceded he is entitled to this percentage unfortunately so that could make it harder.

1. Did she leave a will and what did it say?
2. Why is everyone assuming what she put into the house was not a gift to you?

Can you clarify how much your mil gave you towards the house 4 years ago? Was it more or less than £350k. Did she pay towards any bills since living with you? All this needs to be considered before agreeing to give bil £175k.

If your now saying this was classed as an investment...
Your mother in law's estate will owe 39% of fees....
£1500 a month mortgage. 5 years...
£500 a month utilities... 4 years
£3000 fees to buy..
£117000
Gives her a bill of £45,600

You need to ask for this from the estate....

Greatvengeance, I'm sorry to hear about your mum. You're right that it's a sad situation all round.

Nobody's disputing that he is owed the 18%. But I don't think it's selfish of us to ask for time for the market to improve. I'm not selfish. I spent six months worth of weekends packing up her old home (she was a hoarder) and another six nursing her, all while my daughter got ignored, parked in front of DVDs or passed around babysitters.

And I lived with (someone else's) very difficult mother for the best part of five years.

BiL did nothing. He only visited her twice in 30 years. And now he's forcing us to sell up in the middle of Brexit. For the hell of it.

As for the £875k, there's not much equity so it's not really relevant.

mummy2017, Not to mention what they've saved in care-home fees.

I think you need to get independent legal advice, from a senior lawyer who specializes in estate litigation.

Was everyone’s intention that MIL would pay a deposit, and get free homecare in exchange therefor for her entire life? Or that her son, who never visited, would get half her estate while her other son (and his family) bore the cost of caring for her?

You owe him £175k which is 18% of your house... the house must be worth nearly £1m? No wonder BIL thinks you’re taking the mick if you’re living in a million pound house and not paying your debt to him. Especially considering you have very little equity so you must be earning enough to pay an absolutely massive mortgage. Morally you should give him his share. Legally it sounds like he has no claim and anything he does get is dependent on your good will and decency. Perhaps you should remind him of that fact.

Take the house off the market and get legal advice.
BIL is behaving really badly.

RaptorWhiskers
Have you spent 5 years caring for a sick, elderly person?
It is way more than a full time job, expensive and very stressful.
It would cost at least what BIL is demanding to pay a live in carer for that length of time.

You don’t need to sell.

Tell him he can place a charge on the property if he’s worried, but tbh, he has no legal right to that money so WHENEVER YOU DECIDE TO SELL, he’ll get a payout

Otherwise, tell him he can waste as much money as he likes trying to prove something that he can’t prove because there is absolutely no paperwork and it’s his Nast grabbing word against yours

Honestly get advice and then park it.

Do not sell your home.

OP, if there is not much equity, I don't see how his share can be £175K because surely he can't have what isn't there? If the value of the property has gone down, then his share will have gone down with it? .

This should have all been dealt with legally at the time. BIL could have had back half of the money that she invested, with any gain being due to you and your DH as you are the ones spending money on the property. As others have said, her money would have gone if she had gone into a care home.

Your mortgage must be huge if you don't have much equity in the property yet BIL share is £175K. It doesn't make sense.

Morally you should give him his share. Legally it sounds like he has no claim and anything he does get is dependent on your good will and decency. Perhaps you should remind him of that fact.*

This

So grandmother sold her house and contributed a large sum to you and DH to buy your house, and didn't even put her name on the deeds. It was a gift. That was dgm's money to do what she wanted with. If she'd wanted to give him something, she could have arranged it. Nothing to do with BIL. She probably knew he was much wealthier than you and didn't need it. You owe him nothing. Tell him to whistle.

Surely you only one hin 18% of the Equity or at most half of what his Mum put in. Not 18% of the value of the house.

if your mother gave a third deposit but you have improved the house I think your brother is only entitled to 17.5% of value before improvements or 50% of what your MIL actually donated ie 50% of the cash, not cash plus equity

obviously you will have a deposit of your share of that third
please note all fees will be shared 50/50 of he takes separate legal advice he needs to pay for it even if you don't have much separate equity surely 175K is a hefty deposit

you are just going to have to invest in some decent legal advice £2000K now could save thousands down the line don't scrimp here it could be very costly
did your MIL seriously intend her son to benefit from improvements you made as a goodwill gesture or did she just want him to get his share of the deposit back? if she put in 175K he is entitled to 87500 minus 50% of fees

so your MIL lived with you for 4 years rent free and bills free and you cared for her,
she must have signed something on mortgage that she would not claim in event of you failing to pay mortgage (ie she could not stop them repossessing on the basis that it was her home) all mortgage companies insist on this

did you ever agree with BIL that you would sell up when she died so he would get his share?

just get a lawyer and fast

FFS, stop whining on here and see a solicitor for proper advice. No one on here can advise you.

Also, no idea whether you owe him a share sorry, but if a child under 18 is living in the house does this give you further protection against a sale?

sorry I thought 175K was her deposit I know see that is half the deposit
so he is maybe owed "175k- fees"

I think he is entitled to 50% of her deposit not 18% of the current value as your improvements at your expense will have contributed to the increase in value, he is not entitled legally or morally to a share of the increase in value from your improvements

are you basing calculations on current worth or purchase price because 17.5% of purchase price is almost certainly less than 17.5 % of valuation

Wow. So this is all backwards. So the presumption in law is that ownership follows the law (I.e. that you owned the lot you can look at cases likegissing v gissing etc). In order to prove that the funds belonged to MIL and therefore you held it on resulting trust for her. Then there is a presumption of advancement from people in a parental position to their children (bennet v Bennett is the authority for that one). Although interestingly it used to be the case that this didn’t operate between mothers and children. Which would also be rebutted. I do think that both presumptions could be rebutted in that they are both fairly weak (especially because you DH was an adult) but the onus was very much on your BIL but you’ve effectively conceded the point. At 18% share it’s highly unlikely that he would successfully be able to force you to sell the house. In your position I would get some legal advice and go to a proper lawyer. Do try to relax as well. In order to make you sell he’d have To go to court, go through the palaver of rebutting presumption and would probably be told to wait until you disposed of the house anyway. At most you might get an order compelling you to sell which you are in the process of doing anyway. At any rate that process is very drawn out (and due the state of the law in this area you could easily stall it by putting legal obstacles in his way) andvery costly (unless it’s very expensive house I doubt he’d bother). Just tell him to calm down, you do intend to sell but it’s not easy because of brexit.

Legally his share will be equal to half of your MILs share unless you can prove that you intended your seperate share to crystallise before the improvements (have a look at Jones v Kermit andstack v dowden toseehow courtsdeal with subsequent improvements and other expenditure).

Why do you think you owe him a percentage of the value of your house? You do not. You owe him, perhaps morally but not legally if what you say is correct, half of the amount she gave you.
The percentage or value of house is not relevant. LISTEN!!