Child maintenance System has no regard for the fathers family

[Lsimms97]

I’m absolutely in shock at how many posts I am reading from women slating their children’s fathers who are refusing to pay maintenance through CMS. I am a woman and if I ever break up with my husband, I would never ever put in a CMS claim because I respect him. I understand that sometimes there are deadbeat fathers and CMS is the only option, but for loving fathers who actually see their children, please do not use CMS! My husband’s ex, who has a drug problem, is unemployed and takes up drug habits whilst my stepchild is at school all day, has decided that after years of a family based arrangement, that she would like to put in a CMS claim, in which she has lied about the existence of my children and the amount of nights we looks after my step child for. CMS are being extremely difficult about this and forcing us to go through tribunal courts to resolve the incorrect information whilst at the same time they are taking incorrect payments from us which is everything we have after paying rent. The result is that we are now left struggling to feed and clothe two toddlers. I love my stepchild and would never see them go without, we are a huge part in their life and have never refused to pay for school uniforms, lunch money, top ups, holidays etc, clothes, haircuts...anything which is needed! But the reality is my stepchild is walking around in a pair of £200 trainers, has all of the latest gadgets etc and we have nothing left for our children. His ex has even sent us a picture of a takeaway and said ‘cheers’ because she is getting so much money and it does not take that much money to raise one child. Do you not also think that as mothers, you should also contribute to the child’s upbringing? CMS payments mean that fathers pay for everything even though it takes two to tango. My poor husband has Had his life ruined by this woman constantly using the child as a weapon and now she’s found a new way to get to him. The sad reality is he is going to have to quit his job or we lose our home. I also work part time by the way, but we cannot cover the unrealistic payments and still support our children. CMS do not care about this, I have cried down the phone to them and they literally couldn’t care less.so please women, if you have any respect for your ex, please seek a family based arrangement. So many men have committed suicide over this, and been left in poverty. It isn’t fair. The CMS are awful!

Maintenance is not linked to need - solely to ability to pay. Hence the despair of many line parents.

I have costed the childcare element to demonstrate that the allocation of cost and responsibility of raising a child is currently placing an unequal burden on the parent with care.

I am using logic and data to demonstrate this, in the same way you chose to do in your previous posts.

Apologies all for the double post: I wish not to have financial credit for the childcare I do, but I would like it to be seen, and recognised.

Ideally my ex would take an equal share in rearing this child we made together, but as it is he has no interest, so I give my all to her to make up for that.

@Bluelonerose I think it is universally accepted that the OP is talking out of her arse.

Just as fathers who say they're babysitting their own children get castigated (quite rightly), mothers who want financial credit for simply looking after their own child occupy that same space

The recognition that is needed is that the childcare burden restricts what a lone parent can earn. I doubt you can disagree with this but you have suggested RPs want payment for raising their children which is missing the point.
I could earn a big salary BUT can't if I am the responsible parent 95% of the time.
I simply can't do the long haul travel that is expected with the big income. If I did my dc would suffer, been there and tried it.

Equally the benefit system only allows for subsistence and is in no way generous or provides a reasonable standard of living.
Again I hope this is accepted.I doubt anyone except those with extreme views believe we have a generous benefit system in the UK.

I thought the comment about "simply looking after" a child is crass. There is nothing "simple" about raising a child well. It is extremely challenging and demanding at times BUT I accept long term rewarding in a non financial sense. It is not simple to deal with a vomiting child throughout the night and cope with the morning routine, on no sleep and still manage to get other children out to school and yourself at your PC before 9am..Most NRPs hand over the sick children so life for them isn't disrupted. My dc's father would never take a day to care for them if he had a meeting, as a result he is paid well.

If it's accepted that raising children curbs earning potential then it follows that the children in the household will be impacted by the RP parents finances or lack of them.Forget the concept of "giving to the lazy feckless RPs" it needs an attitude change so that the DCs are put ahead of a %. The CMS allowed NRP to tick a mental box saying "I pay what I should, give me a pat on the back".

I am not saying we need the individual system back but a culture shift is required so that the % an NRP provides isn't seen as generous.Perhaps the calculator should state a disclaimer "this assessment will only state the base level that is the legal minimum, usually caring NRPs make additional payments which reflect the needs of the child and you are encouraged to use the assessment as the minimum legal amount only and add additional support so that your child is provided for"

I can't bear NRPs who despite having high incomes pay the minimum despite fully knowing that it going to cause hardship for their child.They fear the RP having "more" than they should rather than ensure THEIR child is properly cared for.They despise the RP more than they love their child.

Missedtheboat says he knows his child is missing out yet he does nothing but throw negative comments towards the Ex. He needs to step up or shut up. He wants to be "right" more than take the "right" action.
It is distressing and makes me angry to read that he knows his son is suffering yet he does nothing to help. If he has resources, money but not time (as he chooses to work abroad) why not freely give extra money.
He could setup DDs for activities or give his son pocket money. Good parents don't sit by and do nothing.

I have older dc so I know that dc eventually work out who is the caring parent.They know their Dad will look after himself, buy his expensive toys and have the holidays before caring for them.It makes me very sad that he can't see how his obsession with trying to pay the absolute minimum is translated to them as lack of love and they dislike him for it. They smile & nod when he shows them something expensive he has bought yet but if they ask for something that he deems a mum expense he refuses to buy it...because your mum has CMS and I won't pay twice.
Ex will likely have a fair amount left when he eventually goes and our dc will inherit. They won't feel warmer towards him as a result, just bewlidered that he had such an attitude when they were growing up.

It's odd, isn't it, how many NRP/fathers have neglectful ex's? And yet so few of them go for full custody

Like the NRP on this thread my ex has an emotionally, financially and physically neglectful ex (me). He's happy enough to leave his children in my care for weeks at a time without speaking to them, though .

Mine took me to court, broke me, blamed me for all sorts complete character assassination, all for contact which I was trying my best to stop completely, when they actually suggested more...he backed right off, when I threatened to actually tell them what had been going on..he backed off. But blames me for living a high life on his money and his all he could, this meant his own DC became homeless, but hey, i'm the shit one

• hid [all he could]

@Lifebegins50 Certainly in a divorce situation you will find that PWCs end up with more than half of the assets in recognition of their future contribution to the welfare of the children of the family. See s25(2)(f) ...the contributions which each of the parties has made or is likely in the foreseeable future to make to the welfare of the family, including any contribution by looking after the home or caring for the family

(Although not if it is a higher earner spouse - I had care (he didn't want it even a night a year) and yet he got more than half the assets as a buy out of his maintenance for life claims)

Collaborate, judges are mostly adhering to the 50:50 asset rule (and restricting SM) since the Mostyn ruling so I don't think RPs ever achieve financial equality with a NRP who is able to fully commit to a career.
The study 10 years ago even when 50:50 was less common states "Divorce makes men - and particularly fathers - significantly richer. When a father separates from the mother of his children, according to new research, his available income increases by around one third. Women, in contrast, suffer severe financial penalties. Regardless of whether she has children, the average woman's income falls by more than a fifth and remains low for many years.

The research was carried out by Professor Stephen Jenkins, a director of the Institute for Social and Economic Research and chair of the Council of the International Association for Research on Income and Wealth...Jenkins found that the positive effect on men's finances is so significant that divorce can even lift them out of poverty, while women are far more likely to be plunged into destitution. Separated women have a poverty rate of 27% - almost three times that of their former husbands"

If you add in wage inequality as a factor for women then the ability of MOST mothers to provide adequately for their DC is very much reduced.Until fathers assume 50% of childcare from birth and women are paid equally this inequality will remain.

I think many NRPs are so short sighted and think that by penny pinching there is no impact to their relationship with their children. However children get older and start asking questions and it's not cool if the NRP has pots of cash & assets and yet the dc lived with a RP who struggled to pay bills.

Which 50/50 asset rule is that? I’ve been practicing in family law for over 25 years and haven’t come across such a rule.

Which Mostyn judgment would that be? He’s made literally hundreds.

To Sue51

I work outside UK. So custody is proving to be difficult. Trying to get my parents to be nominated guardians, but ex wife is blocking by arguing that due to their age they are unfit to look after a child aged 12. She has stated that child never stays with his grandparents which is a total lie.

She has recently told CMS that child spends no time with me and CM should be based on 365 days per year. I have provided CMS with copies of flight and hotel reservations and emails from ex wife that I must look after child during the school holidays. However, CMS are unable to accept that as evidence. Only a court order or agreement signed by both parents can be accepted by CMS.

Discussed with the Barrister who represented me during the divorce and did a great job of exposing ex wife as a liar at the Final Hearing and they advised that it’s time for me to play nasty too.

Advise was that as I work in a country that does not have a REMO agreement with the UK it should be easy to avoid child maintenance altogether. Wife could go to country I work and seek help from local legal advise. However, country I work in is renowned for corruption and legal I have spoke to have stated they would take the skin off her back by charging massive fees.

All nasty stuff, but all down to fact that ex did not get her own way in the courts and is using the child as a weapon.

I await all the negative comments from those who believe ex husband owe their ex wife a life of luxury even though they want ex husband never to see child again

Missedtheboat says he knows his child is missing out yet he does nothing but throw negative comments towards the Ex. He needs to step up or shut up. He wants to be "right" more than take the "right" action.
It is distressing and makes me angry to read that he knows his son is suffering yet he does nothing to help. If he has resources, money but not time (as he chooses to work abroad) why not freely give extra money.
He could setup DDs for activities or give his son pocket money. Good parents don't sit by and do nothing

Grandparents have offered to look after child, but Ex objects because she knows she will lose; Child Benefit, Child Tax Credits and Child Maintenance.

Which 50/50 asset rule is that? I’ve been practicing in family law for over 25 years and haven’t come across such a rule.

There is no such rule. Another MN myth that never seems to die no matter how many times Legal spell it out.

Collaborate, judges are mostly adhering to the 50:50 asset rule (and restricting SM) since the Mostyn ruling so I don't think RPs ever achieve financial equality with a NRP who is able to fully commit to a career.

Guess you are referring to the ruling:

www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Fam/2014/4183.html

Punchline was that SM, if applicable at all, was to be based on NEEDS ONLY and whether or not the party being asked to pay could actually afford to pay. Would not be correct to make an order that plunged someone into poverty.

Lord Pritchford's ruling in Feb 2015 known as "Get a Job" is also relevant.

Punchline was that an RP whose children were aged over 7 could work part time. Not correct that RP could expect to live free off NRP for life.

Women fought for decades for equal rights, but seem to apply the logic that equality is wrong if it is to their disadvantage.

Women know that they are the only gender that can give birth so if they think it will lead to a lifetime of disadvantage why do they have children?

Maintenance is not linked to need - solely to ability to pay.

And rightly so. Can't extract blood from a stone. Would not be fair to plunge NRP into poverty so that RP can enjoy same lifestyle as before. Even Mostyn has stated that a level of hardship (as long as not undue hardship) in the early days after divorce was acceptable

With the exception of wealthy couples it is likely that both RP and NRP will experience a drop in living standards in the early years after divorce.

It's odd, isn't it, how many NRP/fathers have neglectful ex's? And yet so few of them go for full custody

I am trying to get custody and nominate my parents as guardians. Ex wife has objected because she knows she will lose:

£88 per month Child Benefit
£277 per month Child Tax Credit
£650 per month Child Maintenance

£1,015 per month in Total.

However, she id happy for grandparents to look after child when she goes on holiday

Perhaps the calculator should state a disclaimer "this assessment will only state the base level that is the legal minimum

CMS is the Legal minimum. Anything NRP pays above that is voluntary. I used to pay more than CMS to cover child's hobbies and school trips. However, when child told me that his mother was not taking him to his hobbies I stopped overpaying.

I can't bear NRPs who despite having high incomes pay the minimum

Under CMS high earners pay more than the old CSA system as CM is now calculated on gross income as opposed to net income.

As an example someone earning £100K would pay 12% of gross for one child which is £12K per year under CMS.

CSA was 15% of net income. £100K gives a net income of £66K. 15% of £66K is £9,900. That is £2,100 less than the CMS calculation.

So high earners pay more CM now than before.

Maybe LifeBegins50 should do some research before posting?

Wow Missedtgeboatagain has posted seven times in a row! Enjoying your conversation with yourself are you?

FWIW I've seen a lot of your posts and you sound worse with every one. Trying to remove custody from your ex but getting your parents to care for your son is about the lowest I've heard. Why don't you step up and look after your child yourself? Oh because you work abroad right?

Well, a degree of hardship post divorce is acceptable I've heard so go back to the UK, take a lower paying job, juggle work and childcare and stop bitching about your ex.

@ohamlreally

Ex states that maintenance she receives is insufficient to look after Child. If that is correct why does not accept grandparents offer to look after Child as she would then have no child costs at all?

Look forward to hearing an answer to that question

Here's a radical suggestion @MissedTheBoatAgain why don't you take care of your child? Get a job in the UK and get 50-50 custody.

You sound so much like my ex. If you hadn't said you work outside the UK I'd be convinced you were him. It's like you've both read the same book on how to be a jackass and copied it to the letter.

Incidentally, I bumped into one of my ex's friends on my way to one of my three jobs yesterday. They asked me if I was going to get a job now my youngest was in secondary school. Of course, they accepted it would be hard owing to me not having worked since I left ex penniless and destitute but I could go to college or volunteer. He's sure I'd find something eventually

missed the boat again have to point out that you are wrong about the 12% of gross calc. That's certainly not how mine was worked out and I have it all set out on paper. First there's deduction for his step DC who take first claim on his money, before his own DC financial responsibility, its a big chunk, also if you are self-employed, absolutely everything else is deducted before csa!
I don't think there's anything wrong with women getting pissed off at the vast amounts of fathers who either avoid paying (going SE) or paying minimum. There are very broads bands of salary within which a payment amount is set, plus father can claim other amounts to offset final amount paid, this includes their pension and their own additional pension contributions. So you're wrong about your 12% off topline. Unless I have been singled out for a different arrangement, which is also clearly allowed!

Is there a problem with the being higher amounts of CMS payable where nrp earns higher salary? That sounds awfully like someone who resents their DC having a decent home/food/clothing etc? Access to high cost devices and so on? Would that be true or are you the only one allowed to 'bestow' such manipulative gifting?
So its within bands, has been exactly what CMS has told me. So you could be just within an earning band (like tax), or you could be at the top of that band and stl be paying the same cm as someone earning £1000's less.
FFF types share a type of speech that's easily recognisable by women of such XPs!

Third post!! Sorry for repeat posting, but hang on! You have DC in the UK and fucking moved abroad and then have the gall to control how your ex brings up the DC by fluctuating cm according to 'activites' she takes the DC too. Did you control her like this when you were together?!