Child maintenance System has no regard for the fathers family

[Lsimms97]

I’m absolutely in shock at how many posts I am reading from women slating their children’s fathers who are refusing to pay maintenance through CMS. I am a woman and if I ever break up with my husband, I would never ever put in a CMS claim because I respect him. I understand that sometimes there are deadbeat fathers and CMS is the only option, but for loving fathers who actually see their children, please do not use CMS! My husband’s ex, who has a drug problem, is unemployed and takes up drug habits whilst my stepchild is at school all day, has decided that after years of a family based arrangement, that she would like to put in a CMS claim, in which she has lied about the existence of my children and the amount of nights we looks after my step child for. CMS are being extremely difficult about this and forcing us to go through tribunal courts to resolve the incorrect information whilst at the same time they are taking incorrect payments from us which is everything we have after paying rent. The result is that we are now left struggling to feed and clothe two toddlers. I love my stepchild and would never see them go without, we are a huge part in their life and have never refused to pay for school uniforms, lunch money, top ups, holidays etc, clothes, haircuts...anything which is needed! But the reality is my stepchild is walking around in a pair of £200 trainers, has all of the latest gadgets etc and we have nothing left for our children. His ex has even sent us a picture of a takeaway and said ‘cheers’ because she is getting so much money and it does not take that much money to raise one child. Do you not also think that as mothers, you should also contribute to the child’s upbringing? CMS payments mean that fathers pay for everything even though it takes two to tango. My poor husband has Had his life ruined by this woman constantly using the child as a weapon and now she’s found a new way to get to him. The sad reality is he is going to have to quit his job or we lose our home. I also work part time by the way, but we cannot cover the unrealistic payments and still support our children. CMS do not care about this, I have cried down the phone to them and they literally couldn’t care less.so please women, if you have any respect for your ex, please seek a family based arrangement. So many men have committed suicide over this, and been left in poverty. It isn’t fair. The CMS are awful!

Op you are so funny.
Go on then how much is he paying.
I suspect this threat is at an end up you know I would be interested.
Maybe it i
Was just BS? You boasted?

Hahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!

I have a formal arrangement via CMS and he pays £10.76 a week!!!!!!!!!!

Pays for everything MY ARSE!!!!!!!!!

What an ignorant fool you are!

Also, cannot believe you have believed the utter rubbish your husband has fed you about his kid's Mum! Drugs! If he really believed that, he wouldn't allow the kids to go home! If he's on the birth certificate then he legally doesn't have to allow them to go home if he doesn't want to. Fact.

OPEN YOUR EYES!!!!

Can you work, and he stay home with your kids?

Surely both parents should contribute a similar proportion of income to raising their children. So it's none of the NRP's business whether the RP earns millions or is on benefits. The NRP needs to contribute. Having children is a significant drain on finances, don't see why that shouldn't be the case for NRPs.

Yes the cms is evil when ds2 dad was paying for his gf 4 dc (none of which are his) yet couldn't pay for his own child.
The nasty cms MADE him pay £7 a week. utter bastards they are

My point was that every family differs. Some of us always spend a lot more than £10k a year on our children (and yes I pay the student fees, rents, allowance etc etc so that is how it ends up being so much - my choice; our divorce consent order however does say I must pay all university costs and school fees not matter who the children live with)

@Bluelonerose £7 is what is paid by someone whose income is under £100 a week, but more than £7 a week, or is on certain state benefits. Let's assume he's on JSA - which would pay him £73.10 a week. If he had the child living with him he'd get more than that (£84.72 to be precise). But he doesn't. So all he has is £73.10 a week for his bills, and a contribution to council tax.

Where do you think he should get the money from to pay any more?

I am genuinely interested in your response. You see, if you adopt the principle that someone in the father's situation should be required to pay more, they either pay more out of their benefits or they are somehow found a job and are made to work it. I can't see how you could expect someone to pay more out of their benefits unless you think that benefits at current rates provide someone with more than they need to live on.

@collaborate - it seems like the issue there was that the ex had a new gf who had four kids and CMS ask for number of kids in the news household, which reduces ex's payment, then add in that the ex has the DC a night or two a week and there's not much left I guess.

I think the system is wrong there, I think only dc the nrp has parental responsibility for should be counted. The people with pr for those children should be supporting them financially.

The RP often does not have the earning potential if they do most of the childcare and Collaborate numbers are not showing childcare costs and his assessment is too simplistic. He suggests having children on min wage plus benefits is a totally fine way to live...it isn't, most people in that situation struggle and have to use foodbanks. You might do it for a few weeks but living like that in most parts of the UK will have you in grinding hardship.

The reality is children need care, sickness, dr & dental appointments and one parent has to mostly cover that.

If a RP is earning over 30k benefits are very limited yet they may have large childcare costs. The life for a child who's parent, is living on a small income because that parent does a job that has flexibility, is tough. This affects the child.
It is hard for a single parent with several children to get out of the lowish paying job because caring for children and doing it well is highly demanding.
30k a year is an above average salary but might be the highest a single parent can earn if it accommodates childcare but after essential bills there is often little left.

An NRP who has no childcare duties can earn 50k equivalent which equates to £1000 more per month. However their CMS contribution is circa £200 extra per month so they have considerable more available.

@Missedtheboat, not many women or men have never worked and if that was the situation when you met and married your Ex then you must look to your responsibility. There is little point criticising someone who you chose to marry if they had zero work ethic at the outset.

I would just encourage you to see the positive of your ex being around for your son. It maybe something he really values and you should be grateful that you are ablet to pursue your career without the day to day impact of raising children.

I would love to swan out of the door at 7am and stay in the office until whenever but I can't as the dc would be left alone and stressed.You are very,very fortunate if your Ex picks up all the childcare, except contact times.

The money you are making now will I assume, go to your son..eventually so I can't see why you are so keen to not contribute anything more than you HAVE to now. He gets one shot of childhood and you have a conscious choice how you help his childhood be funded..even if it means for a few years you give extra to his mum.If he needs money for activities and you have it, give it freely! In 5 years you will hardly notice the difference in your bank statements yet it will be worth much more to your son.

When he is older he is likely to truly appreciate how life was for his mum and he may judge you for building pots of cash whilst he and his mum struggled.

If you genuinely feel your ex squanders money and is lazy so be it . I can't judge as only have your side however you seem to have no positive thoughts re your Ex and that suggests you struggle with empathy and perhaps black & white thinking.
If other people, in RL, have ever mentioned this to you then its worth taking it on board as you will have a better relationship with your son as a result...and probadly feel less angry/bitter towards your ex.

To LifeBegins50

Ex came to the UK with intent of working as self employed Hair Dresser. I paid for 2 years training at local technical College only for wife to pack it all in before completing the final third year. Then started an apprenticeship in health care. Packed that in after only a few months.

Son recently confided in my parents that his mother does very little for him other than washing clothes and occasionally taking him to school on the days she works.

At age of 12 he is a proficient cook as he does most of his own cooking when with his mother.

Only time he gets a holiday is when I am in the UK, but his mother has visited her home country several times by herself and plans another holiday in the forthcoming half term school holiday.

When asked by her own family why after the divorce did she not return to her native country her reply was:

`UK benefits are way more than I would ever get in my native Country'

Her family were staggered that what she gets per month for free is more than what some of them they get per year.

vangoghsdog absolutely, that is another of CMS failings! Who ever could come to that decision! Bloody mad, and its about financially crippling the lone parent and rewarding the family who now have two dads contributing to the pot. Absolutely nuts. That they would deduct an amount for DC that have a father already with financial responsibility before calculating the financial responsibility to their own DC.

It's a proportion, so £7 or £1000 its still the same percentage. The father only paying £7 can only pay £7! Unfortunately, there are those out there who wil put themselves out of work to avoid paying, and that s shit!

@lifebegins50 No one who worked in the family justice system thought the CSA was a good thing when it came out. It is the inflexibility of the scheme that can throw up perceived unfairness. No account taken of nursery costs and no account taken of the income of the parent with care are just two of many.

But it's a trade off. Rather than more earlier on but less later on it is averaged out.

MissedTheBoatAgain, if your ex is so neglectful of your son why are you not doing all you can to get custody?

"I think the system is wrong there, I think only dc the nrp has parental responsibility for should be counted." Actually I'd take it a step further and say that maintenance should not be reduced even if nrp goes on to have more DC. Their older DC don't suddenly not need fed, clothed etc because their nrp has more DC.

Back in the 90's it used to be the case that nrps partners income was ALSO included for calculations in how much maintenance should be paid, and maintenance was reduced if rp moved in with someone new - rightfully that was stopped as step parents are not financially or legally responsible for step children.

Lifebegins50 (god I hope you're right!😂) - is right that in addition RP's are ALSO the ones who's earning potential is restricted AND has high costs for childcare if working. When dd was younger I was working full time, slightly better that nmw so not eligible for hb, but low enough income I got child tax credits and childcare tax credits. The last time I can remember not worrying about money was when married, living overseas in a country with a lower cost of living, working in a job where the wage was good even for a British wage. Lasted less than 5 years that. Yes it's partly arguably choice as I met my ex who was army and chose to be a trailing spouse but that usually meant taking whatever nmw type job was available before dd and then being a sahm after having dd. I've said elsewhere on mn, not sure if I have on this thread, that I very much regret that, I was persuaded by ex, in-laws, my family and friends (who were also army wives and sahm at that time mostly)

"When he is older he is likely to truly appreciate how life was for his mum and he may judge you for building pots of cash whilst he and his mum struggled." So true. Dd certainly the last time she saw her dad and seeing stuff on Facebook (via grandparents) rails at the fact he always begrudged paying maintenance or even getting her decent Christmas/birthday presents when his subsequent children were furnished with designer clothing, latest gadgets, holidays and days out - things I simply couldn't afford. Last time he pled poverty re her wanting to go down and see him, he and wife 2 had just bought a 4 bed detached house with enclosed front and back gardens and double garage in the south east, they both drive cars no older than 2 years ever, even though he lives walking distance to work, they also both have latest gadgets and of course enjoy the same holidays etc with the DC. He belongs to a good gym too. And I know I'm getting get some bright spark saying "well if he'd just bought X y Z money probably was tight" - well he bought/paid out for all those things KNOWING He wasn't paying the maintenance he was supposed to and clearly not even setting it aside to give dd when older. Dd is lucky if she gets a card for her birthday these days - usually stepmums or grans handwriting at that. Ultimately it's not really about the money it's about the fact this demonstrates that her dad doesn't even think about her, doesn't miss her. It's utterly heartbreaking to witness.

I think it unlikely a 12-year old is fully aware of all his mother does for him with her being the RP. The things you mention are top of the iceberg in all that needs to be done to run a household let alone raise a child eg who do you think taught your son to cook? My dd a good cook but it was me painstakingly showing her the skills and praising the initially lacklustre (or highly spiced!) results to give her confidence. And at 12 he will be doing more for himself - that's what parents do - teach children to become self sufficient adults. I'll bet he's not sorting the budget, making sure bills are paid, keeping paperwork straight, meal planning, buying groceries, buying his own clothes, hoovering, dusting, washing dishes, doing minor household repairs, mopping floors,
Cleaning counters, washing soft furnishings, doing the general day to day tidying... He certainly wouldn't have done it when he was younger!

Also consider the audience YOUR parents, not unusual for children that age to say what they think people want them to say, whether or not the conversation was led.

Sue51 - exactly nrps and their supporters always happy to criticise but NEVER want to take on the role themselves - see it repeatedly on mn!

Collaborate I think you have missed @lifebegins50 's point re childcare. You mention nursery costs (childcare costs continue with after-school and holiday childcare) but the point she is making is all the unpaid and unrecognised childcare the RP provides day in and day out.

In principle I agree that costs should be 50/50 and I take your point about the state making a contribution on behalf of the RP but the provision of the childcare is the massive elephant in the room here.

I work slightly less than full time, receive no CB or tax credits. I am not free to stay late at the office and any extra-curricular work such as travel or evening meetings I have to make extremely elaborate childcare arrangements for. My ex on the other hand is free to work overtime; study; advance his career in ways I simply cannot. I am doing 100% of the work with 50% of the workforce and this is an enormous hidden cost in bringing up a child alone.

Yes, it's constant and day in day out that the resident parent does not have. Even now I have teenagers there is a lot to do.

the point she is making is all the unpaid and unrecognised childcare the RP provides day in and day out

Just as fathers who say they're babysitting their own children get castigated (quite rightly), mothers who want financial credit for simply looking after their own child occupy that same space.

Under the old CSA calculation (pre set percentage days) there was an element of award to the parent with care as carer. The complexity of that system made it undesirable. What we have now is relatively simple, but the trade-off is that it's a blunt instrument.

If we want to move over to a system that looks at each case individually and makes awards that are tailored to the family we'll have to revert to the old court based system. I've tried to find data on the cost to the government of running the whole Child Maintenance Group pf the DWP but they don't appear to publish separate figures. I strongly suspect that it is no cheaper than the courts were, and less effective.

@VanGoghsDog
Why should only parents with PR pay? That would lead to many more fathers refusing to go on the birth cert in case they split in future then the child loses out twice. What is a parent is stripped of PR by the courts, should they not have to pay either?
Your child, you pay. PR does not come into it.

If she is such a bad mother, why isn't he fighting for custody? Drug taking isn't compatible with parenting

I just meant that step children/random children you live with, should not be taken into account when calculating RP CM payments, but didn't want to exclude adoptive parents or those who had PR for some other reason.

When is a parent 'stripped of PR by the courts' but still expected to pay to support their child, out of interest?

@Collaborate I don't want financial credit for looking after my child but I am also doing his 50% of childcare. The calculation regarding overnight stays is related to costs, I am not prepared to believe that the calculation relates also to childcare.

For instance in the case of a lone parent of a school age child with sole residency and no overnights, the hours of childcare look like this:

365 x 24 = 8,520
Minus 1,235 hours in the school year
7,285 hours
Split between parents that should be 3,642.5 hours each.
If I were to outsource my half of childcare (as you appear to be suggesting the CMS consider has been done by the payment of maintenance) the cost would be over £36,000.

You posted detailed calculations on the cost of raising a child earlier in this thread but there is no account taken of the above.

@VanGoghsDog
Apologies completely didn't read it correctly. I agree as a general other peoples children should not be used to get out of paying your own childs maintenence payments. I know of one case where child lived permanently with dad but because mum still took receipt of the child benefit her partner paid less towards his children.
A parent deemed not capable of having parental responsibility for reasons of criminality severe mental health or addiction can still be expected to pay CM if capable or able to work.

@ohamIreally If you don’t want financial credit for caring for your own child why have you costed the outsourcing of that care?

Just because a father pays maintenance he is not entitled to contact. Just because he doesn’t pay doesn’t mean he should get no contact.

That is because maintenance is apparently linked to need and ability to pay. It works both ways. If a mother does all the child care because the father has no contact she doesn’t get any more maintenance (save for the obvious rule about deduction, or lack of deductions, for overnight stays). And that is how it should be.

Collaborate my point isn't with the amount being paid (well it is but not for the point of this conversation.)

My point was the op is saying the cms are nasty chasing these poor dad's.
Yet for 2 years before I was entitled to that £7 I got £0 because he decided to up and leave me his dc and his job and basically disappear.

Then for another year I had the promises that he was going to pay and I had enough and went through cms.
He's not even started paying back arrears and as per others as soon as they catch up with him he goes self employed etc.
If he can afford to do that then he can afford more than £7 a week