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Child maintenance System has no regard for the fathers family

361 replies

Lsimms97 · 24/09/2018 22:42

I’m absolutely in shock at how many posts I am reading from women slating their children’s fathers who are refusing to pay maintenance through CMS. I am a woman and if I ever break up with my husband, I would never ever put in a CMS claim because I respect him. I understand that sometimes there are deadbeat fathers and CMS is the only option, but for loving fathers who actually see their children, please do not use CMS! My husband’s ex, who has a drug problem, is unemployed and takes up drug habits whilst my stepchild is at school all day, has decided that after years of a family based arrangement, that she would like to put in a CMS claim, in which she has lied about the existence of my children and the amount of nights we looks after my step child for. CMS are being extremely difficult about this and forcing us to go through tribunal courts to resolve the incorrect information whilst at the same time they are taking incorrect payments from us which is everything we have after paying rent. The result is that we are now left struggling to feed and clothe two toddlers. I love my stepchild and would never see them go without, we are a huge part in their life and have never refused to pay for school uniforms, lunch money, top ups, holidays etc, clothes, haircuts...anything which is needed! But the reality is my stepchild is walking around in a pair of £200 trainers, has all of the latest gadgets etc and we have nothing left for our children. His ex has even sent us a picture of a takeaway and said ‘cheers’ because she is getting so much money and it does not take that much money to raise one child. Do you not also think that as mothers, you should also contribute to the child’s upbringing? CMS payments mean that fathers pay for everything even though it takes two to tango. My poor husband has Had his life ruined by this woman constantly using the child as a weapon and now she’s found a new way to get to him. The sad reality is he is going to have to quit his job or we lose our home. I also work part time by the way, but we cannot cover the unrealistic payments and still support our children. CMS do not care about this, I have cried down the phone to them and they literally couldn’t care less.so please women, if you have any respect for your ex, please seek a family based arrangement. So many men have committed suicide over this, and been left in poverty. It isn’t fair. The CMS are awful!

OP posts:
Racecardriver · 27/09/2018 16:28

If you are sending that child home to a junkie you deserve it really. Why haven't you contacted SS?

IdahoJones · 27/09/2018 16:30

If you are sending that child home to a junkie

Key point, really. The dosh pales into insignificance.

Graphista · 27/09/2018 16:41

"You can't bleat about the fathers not paying 50% of the cost without also advocating for all child related benefits to be stopped"

Why would ALL child related benefits need to be stopped if only 50% of costs were covered by the nrp? If the RP is unable to work or eligible for child related benefits due to low earnings, you'd still need 50% of child related costs covered on the RP's side.

"If a child costs £10k a year to keep (they don't)" who says they don't? If the child is a product of a relationship where at least one parent was a high earner and before the relationship broke down the child had a lifestyle equivalent to £10k a year, why should that child then have a significantly diminished lifestyle because the parents split?

"and the state is paying £5k a year towards that, why should the father's contribution be £5k a year and the mother's nil? The answer is it shouldn't." Ahhh I see - you're trying to turn this into yet ANOTHER benefit bashing thread!

REGARDLESS of how the RP's side of the child's costs are covered - be that state, RP or a combination, that DOESN'T negate the nrps responsibility!

"Fucks sake, this thread is depressingly predictable." Have to agree!

Personally I don't think nrps need to provide a whole permanent room for children who are there 1-2 nights a fortnight. My dd when she was still seeing her dad would stay in her eldest half brothers room and he would stay in a guest bed in his brothers room while she was there. Her stepmum still ensured she felt welcome by providing her with her own bedding, towels, space for clothes and toiletries. Nice if a permanent room is set aside but not necessary - a permanent room in their primary residence though IS necessary.

RedHelenB · 27/09/2018 16:50

Thing is collaborate you fail to give any recognition for the rp doing the vast majority of childcare in the vast majority of cases.

ArfArfBarf · 27/09/2018 18:50

But the figures that you gave, Collaborate , don’t include housing related costs. And I still think you would get different results if you consider situations where there is more than one child.

Collaborate · 27/09/2018 18:52

Still waiting for someone else's researched figures....

Graphista · 27/09/2018 19:10

Ok - how about some REAL LIFE figures? Based on my budget when dd was at high school (so not even
Childcare costs needed) (I do my budget on a spreadsheet and still have old ones)

Difference in rent round here from 1 bed to 2 bed - £150 pm, and it's not an expensive area, and that's a 1 bed flat, if I took the view that if I didn't have dd I could houses share or rent a studio the difference would be more. I've also not included the difference in council tax.

Gas/elec 40
Groceries 75
Phone 20
Clothes 40
School equipment 25
Transport to school 40
Hobbies/entertainment 30
Medical purchases - 30

Total 450 per month. And we were/are on a tight budget!

Ex on the rare occasion he did pay maintenance was assessed as being responsible for far less than half that!

Collaborate · 27/09/2018 23:12

@Graphista I know nothing about your personal circumstances. In most cases I would expect that the father, too, would need an additional room in his house for contact. So you can remove the cost of your room from the equation because it's matched by the cost of his.

I see you're silent about the benefits you receive. Child Benefit? Tax credits? How much does that come to? Because if you've received something from the state for your child you must set that against your costs.

I'm not saying that in every case an absent parent will be paying what you think is the right amount. That is because different people will think the right amount is a different figure. It is quite fair that nationally recognised and respected figures are used.

Would you care to illustrate your point with a worked-out example?

Collaborate · 27/09/2018 23:13

(By "worked out" I mean set out the benefits you receive, state the father's income, and show how much maintenance CMS makes him pay).

Xenia · 27/09/2018 23:17

Many children cost a lot more than £10k. Depends on the family lifestyle. My twins have about £25k a year university costs which I pay for a start. Addon food, their car, holidays. I would be surprised if it is less than £60k a year of after tax income. Roll back a few years and school fees for 5 were at least £50k a year or £30k for 3 and £20k+ full time childcare etc etc.. you just can't generalise about families.

The bottom line is if women never ever give up full time work and never play second fiddle to male careers no matter how easy that is and only marry men who will collect children from nursery etc and be an equal partner life tends to be easier. Rely on the state or men for money and you often come unstuck in life. Self reliance rules okay.

sue51 · 27/09/2018 23:36

Collaborate what about the lone parent earning £60000 a year. No tax credits or child benefit there and a fortune to fork out for child care. Nrp decides he fancies doing a full time masters so no income therefore no maintenance. Doesn't see the child so no worries about a spare room.

sugarcoatedthorns · 27/09/2018 23:54

What's load of ol' shite this thread is.

FFS Xenia

Was just recently made homeless by nrp fucking about with CMS payments claiming he has to pay money into his private pension (top ups which he's allowed to pay back to himself under the new rules), we'd finally got enough bedrooms for us, when CMS declared £100 less a month, that made a £200 shortfall on rent...we could only move into that place and not have to share a bedroom between us because of CMS.

Jeez WTAF!

£200 trainers! Complaining about feeding/clothing their own child!

Graphista · 28/09/2018 00:02

Frankly I deeply resent the implication that I was somehow trying to deceive! I have been very open on mn that I am a Lp on benefits, very easy to see from many of my posts.

As someone who is and was at that time disabled and mentally ill, I wasn't working and yes in receipt of benefits.

As I said before the RP's side being covered by benefits doesn't negate the nrp's responsibility.

At that time I received child benefit of £20 a week and child tax credits of £60 a week. But that shouldn't have been necessary.

I don't know what exs salary was at the time I don't have a note of that, but with all circumstances taken into account, including the 5 children he's fathered since we split, he was assessed as being supposed to pay £39 pw. He never paid regularly, consistently and often not the full amount even when he did pay.

When I first split from ex at that time the rules were that any maintenance received meant that benefits were reduced by the same amount. Due to people like my ex not paying with any consistency this led to children in poverty. I believe it was gingerbread that were the main organisation, though I think cab and shelter also lobbied, for this to be changed. It was a hellish situation because if a single parent family was on benefits, if the nrp was assessed as being supposed to pay eg £30 pw and then made a ONE OFF payment of £5 dwp and tax credits then ASSUMED that the remaining £25 would be paid, or had been paid and that the next month and the next month the nrp would pay and reduced payments accordingly. It was a shambles.

IF a uk govt committed to ensuring cm was paid in full and regularly then reducing benefit payments intended for support of a child/children to account for that would be fair and right.

As things stand we're nowhere near that situation, there's far too many loopholes, the cms isn't fit for purpose and nrps are not pursued - not even just not vigorously pursued but barely pursued at all unless RP's contact them frequently possibly getting MP's and hmrc income tax dept involved.

My ex was in the army at the time. I was able to give what was then the csa his name, dob, service number, personal and work address, email and telephone number. The army have very smooth procedures for dealing with contacting personnel and with doing attachments of earnings if it gets to that stage. Csa didn't even bother writing to him for almost a year! They then let him not reply to them for almost another year. It was at this point my hv recommended going to my local gingerbread group (not specifically for this but for general support) and I learnt there that this was very common (garrison town, lot of ex army wives there) and it was they that told me to contact my MP to get things moving, which I did. After over 2 years of being fobbed off by csa, within 6 months I had my first payment. I was overjoyed at the time as I thought that meant it was sorted - oh no! Ex played the system very well. Always making a nominal payment JUST at the point when csa were threatening an attachment of earnings, which they then each time took to mean he was complying, but he'd then not pay for next few months and the whole thing just went on like that in a cycle - for 14 YEARS!! At the end when csa became cms I finally was assigned a senior case worker who reviewed the full case and arranged an attachment of earnings which meant I received correct payments for the last 5 months (out of 14 YEARS) of the time when I was eligible to go via cms. Dd then left school and started work so ex no longer has to pay maintenance and the fact he owes thousands is now just written off! 😡😡😡

Xenia - not all of us are in a position to be self reliant. I couldn't have predicted the car crash that left me disabled and ramped up my mental illness through the roof! Plus there are millions of full time working Lp working in low pay jobs who are needing to rely on the state to top up the low wages their billionaire bosses deign to pay them.

Gersemi · 28/09/2018 00:10

All I’m trying to say is the CMS are absolutely ridiculous, we now are overpaying until the tribunal hearing, which takes months, and then if we have no luck there I do think from those of you posting seriously that perhaps going for custody is our only option.

I don't understand why you are saying you will only go for custody if you don't get the result you want from the tribunal. From all you are saying the child is being badly neglected by her mother - why not go for custody now? That is a guaranteed way of resolving the CMS problem as obviously your husband won't have to pay if if the child is living with you full time. Indeed, you will be able use it to claim maintenance from his ex.

Graphista · 28/09/2018 00:11

Sue51 - quite right! The RP being well off ALSO doesn't negate the nrps responsibility.

On every thread discussing cm there seems by some posters a determined unwillingness to acknowledge that BOTH parents are responsible for the child.

sugarcoatedthorns · 28/09/2018 00:11

This: I’m absolutely in shock at how many posts I am reading from women slating their children’s fathers who are refusing to pay maintenance through CMS

Why? Why wouldn't women be pissed off at fathers who refuse to pay, who are you to be angry or shocked at them! Over and over irresponsible fathers try to wriggle out of defraud children of the financial support they are rightly owed. They see it as mothers living a high life on their money, and that exactly how you paint it OP, except you slag her off for being a drug user and yet don't act on that for the DCs protection.

From your 'side' its crap, from the other side its crap also.
I wonder at the change and why she would bother to go through all this for CMS to be involved when she had a 'previously perfectly working arrangement of appropriate and timely payments'. Many women actually don't chase their ex's because its pointless, or they're scared. If the nrp is paying predictably and proper amount through a fily arrangement, but I'm assuming the govt doesn't consider this a proper amount, or there's been outstanding payments?

I think its wrong to have to go through tribunals just to get amounts corrected, as all I had to do was provide his work contact details because he put the phone down on them a refused to speak to them
They get those work details either from the nrp or the rp if nrp is an asshole
Then the calculation cannot be wrong. It's not based on some made up rubbish

Frequency · 28/09/2018 00:17

All I’m trying to say is the CMS are absolutely ridiculous, we now are overpaying until the tribunal hearing, which takes months, and then if we have no luck there I do think from those of you posting seriously that perhaps going for custody is our only option

I think you might find that having him live with you would cost you more than CM does. If you are already in poverty bringing another child to live FT with you is irresponsible at best (I'm not buying the druggie thing, btw. No child of an addict walks around in £200 trainers)

sugarcoatedthorns · 28/09/2018 00:24

You will go for custody if the thing at the tribunal fails! Ffs! What?! Do you want this child, is this genuine. You sound like this child is a financial deal to offset your outgoings...that's what you just wrote! Do you hear yourself

sugarcoatedthorns · 28/09/2018 00:26

So will you tell this poor kid why he lives with you now? cos its cheaper this way

sugarcoatedthorns · 28/09/2018 00:31

From all sides we can say cms are ridiculous, but you weren't even mad at them, your were blaming women that must respect their ex's.

So did he make appropriate payments, regularly, and predictably, and how much less that CMS judged he should pay? Is this based on his salary from employer...why has he not just sent in his pay slip/evidence. I didn't get to say how much I 'thought' he should pay, or how much he was earning. Or is this all about number of regular nights weekly?

MissedTheBoatAgain · 28/09/2018 01:16

I see you're silent about the benefits you receive. Child Benefit? Tax credits? How much does that come to?

Spot on. My ex receives the following State Benefits per month:

£88 Child Benefit
£277 Child Tax Credit
£307 Working Tax Credit

£672 Total per month in State Benefits

A lot more that Graphista figure of £450 per month.

MissedTheBoatAgain · 28/09/2018 01:35

You can't bleat about the fathers not paying 50% of the cost without also advocating for all child related benefits to be stopped. If a child costs £10k a year to keep (they don't), and the state is paying £5k a year towards that, why should the father's contribution be £5k a year and the mother's nil? The answer is it shouldn't

Again spot on. My ex receives £672/month in state benefits. That is £8,064 per year. That is 80% of total cost using Collaborate's generous ball park figure of £10,000 per year for one child.

I pay £4,600 per year in CM and £4,800 per year in SM. Add her own earnings of £6,500 she has a total of £24,000 in hand. That is same as a PAYE Salary of £31,000. Not bad for 16 hours work per week considering most people work 40 hours a week for same money.

And before anyone mentions Mortgage or Rent the answer is she has neither to pay as capital settlement enabled her to buy a house outright.

viques · 28/09/2018 01:43

If your husband couldn't afford to pay for one child why has he gone on to have two more?

And I wonder how you would feel about maintenance OP , if he upped sticks and left you and then went on to have more children?

Sometimes the hardest questions to answer are the easy ones.

RoboJesus · 28/09/2018 01:48

So you care more about money than your stepchilds welfare? Lovely

MissedTheBoatAgain · 28/09/2018 02:13

Many children cost a lot more than £10k. Depends on the family lifestyle. My twins have about £25k a year university costs which I pay for a start. Addon food, their car, holidays. I would be surprised if it is less than £60k a year of after tax income. Roll back a few years and school fees for 5 were at least £50k a year or £30k for 3 and £20k+ full time childcare etc etc.. you just can't generalise about families

These figures relate only to wealthy families. No way could an average family on average earnings be able to stretch to these numbers.

£25k a year university costs per child is huge unless you are paying the Tuition Fees yourself as opposed to your children using Student Loans. Might have been cheaper for you to pay the loans once children become liable to repay?

Cars and holidays are not essential for students.