Child maintenance System has no regard for the fathers family

[Lsimms97]

I’m absolutely in shock at how many posts I am reading from women slating their children’s fathers who are refusing to pay maintenance through CMS. I am a woman and if I ever break up with my husband, I would never ever put in a CMS claim because I respect him. I understand that sometimes there are deadbeat fathers and CMS is the only option, but for loving fathers who actually see their children, please do not use CMS! My husband’s ex, who has a drug problem, is unemployed and takes up drug habits whilst my stepchild is at school all day, has decided that after years of a family based arrangement, that she would like to put in a CMS claim, in which she has lied about the existence of my children and the amount of nights we looks after my step child for. CMS are being extremely difficult about this and forcing us to go through tribunal courts to resolve the incorrect information whilst at the same time they are taking incorrect payments from us which is everything we have after paying rent. The result is that we are now left struggling to feed and clothe two toddlers. I love my stepchild and would never see them go without, we are a huge part in their life and have never refused to pay for school uniforms, lunch money, top ups, holidays etc, clothes, haircuts...anything which is needed! But the reality is my stepchild is walking around in a pair of £200 trainers, has all of the latest gadgets etc and we have nothing left for our children. His ex has even sent us a picture of a takeaway and said ‘cheers’ because she is getting so much money and it does not take that much money to raise one child. Do you not also think that as mothers, you should also contribute to the child’s upbringing? CMS payments mean that fathers pay for everything even though it takes two to tango. My poor husband has Had his life ruined by this woman constantly using the child as a weapon and now she’s found a new way to get to him. The sad reality is he is going to have to quit his job or we lose our home. I also work part time by the way, but we cannot cover the unrealistic payments and still support our children. CMS do not care about this, I have cried down the phone to them and they literally couldn’t care less.so please women, if you have any respect for your ex, please seek a family based arrangement. So many men have committed suicide over this, and been left in poverty. It isn’t fair. The CMS are awful!

This does not help. Suggest you contact CMS and explain the circumstances. They may be able to advise how to deal with REMO. However, if you are not certain where your ex lives that makes things difficult.

CMS have absolutely nothing to do with REMO.

Ministry of Justice has a REMO unit - www.gov.uk/remo-unit-helpline

Has anyone on MN used REMO? Never hear much about it?

I've done a quick MN search and found 17 threads about REMO.

Looked on the link provided and country I am resident in appears on the REMO list, but the convention to be applied is listed as “to be confirmed”. So none the wiser.

Other reading suggests that whilst the UK courts can issue a maintenance order and send papers off to the REMO country, they are unable to force the other country to enforce the order. It is also suggested that if other countries do cooperate they will apply their laws as opposed to UK laws.

Is this how it works or am I reading out of date information? Get the feeling it could be a long drawn out process. Add the fact that I change countries often it may never be resolved.

Suggested to ex that my foreign income is converted into sterling and use the online CMS calculator and subtract what CMS has assessed for my UK source income (rent)

MissedTheBoatAgain If the only way I could see my child regularly and even apply for custody from her (in your words) neglectful mother, was to take a job stacking shelves, stacking shelves is what I would jolly well do. If you have been on an ex pat salary for years you presumably have a decent financial cushion so you would not be on your last pennies if you were to move back to the UK. Lots of vitriol directed at your ex but every excuse going to leave your child in her care.

I'm on call facebook with him. He doesn't post and apparently he lives in Hawaii - he doesn't 😂😂

REMO is reciprocal enforced maintenance order whereby courts can force parents on some countries to pay where there is an agreement in place.
We don't have anything in writing etc.
I couldn't afford to do this and returned with ds to UK 12 years ago with his agreement. The agreement was he would use maintenance he paid towards travel to U.K. or for us to travel to him. This didn't really last and when we did visit it cost me a fortune and then he completely stopped doing this. He then stopped contacting ds much over the years but did send birthday and Xmas gifts. Well he did until he split with his XW a few years ago as she was the one arranging it all and making him keep some level of contact.
I also had a FB messenger group where I updated all his family on ds.
Not 1 of them ever replied after I'd posted that he had received his Dx of autism.

Imo ds is better off without them in his life tbh.

MissedTheBoatAgain if you're so concerned that your ex isn't spending the money you give her on your son then why don't you apply to the court to downward vary your SM payments? After all, you can easily do so as long as you can prove that she doesn't need that amount to live on. You can't reduce the CM amount though, quite rightly.

You sound exactly like my ex. He grudges every single penny that he pays as he feels I am living the high life off his back. What he fails to take into account is that I provide all the childcare for our DCs apart from during his contact time of 3 nights out of 14. I do all the school holiday cover, sick days, activities whilst working part time myself.

I was awarded a fairly large amount of SM until my youngest finishes secondary school. I am certain that my ex will apply to reduce this amount though. He is a high earner, I gave up my career in order for him to further his. I now work in a low paid job but have organised my hours so I am there for the children every morning and afternoon but I do work night shifts and weekends. My children also attend school 10 miles away from where we live, my divorce settlement wasn't high enough to buy within the catchment area so I now drive 40 miles a day doing school runs as there isn't any public transport. Ex didn't want the children to move schools but grudges supporting me financially in order for me to be able to do this each day - it massively limits my capability to work outside of school hours.

You aren't even resident in the U.K. to help your ex work more hours than she currently does. Why shouldn't you top up her income?

Also, one of my main points when going for SM was; my ex is a high earner but the children live the vast majority of their lives with me. Therefore, without SM I would struggle to provide more than the very basics for them. Ex lives the high life where things like cars and motorbikes are concerned but does sod all with the children. He can take his affair partner (she is still married) away to expensive hotels regularly but in the 2yrs since he left us he hasn't so much as taken the children to a Premier Inn for a night. Why should they go without holidays? If he CBA to take them anywhere then I'm going to make sure I can. Why should our children grow up in a less-advantaged way when they have one parent who is a high earner? Damn right he should contribute more than the basic CMS calculation (which, is all he pays. I don't ask for anything extra from him for uniforms/school trips or whatever because I acccept he is paying adequate amounts with SM on top).

You need to stop being so bitter. Your child is now 12 so these payments are going to stop in a few years. You are contributing to your child's upbringing whilst still being able to earn a decent wage for yourself because your ex is doing all the childcare. I have no words for your suggestion of your son going to live with his grandparents, btw. If you were that worried about him you would come back and be a parent to him yourself.

you were offered work in tesco stacking shelves.... this just sounds completely ridiculous now, signing off this thread feel my life sapping away in pointless reasoning with the unreasonable

If the only way I could see my child regularly and even apply for custody from her (in your words) neglectful mother, was to take a job stacking shelves, stacking shelves is what I would jolly well do

Would not be able to pay ex anywhere near same maintenance as I can working overseas. Access never used to be a problem and in past I saw child most of his school holidays as my employer who has also been down the divorce route allowed me to take my annual leave during UK School Holidays.

Trouble started recently after taking child on teenage activity holiday in UK with Grandparents and new GF. Child had great time with new GF and I am guessing he has told his mother the same? Hence the nastiness has crept in.

To CarrieMayBe

The SM only has another 2 years to go before it ends. So may as well see it through to the end. The Voluntary excess I paid over the CMS figure has been stopped.

You aren't even resident in the U.K. to help your ex work more hours than she currently does. Why shouldn't you top up her income?

The SM was the income Top Up as Consent Order made when I was working overseas.

If you have been on an ex pat salary for years you presumably have a decent financial cushion so you would not be on your last pennies if you were to move back to the UK

The cushion you refer to was depleted by huge legal fees as ex turned the Divorce into a contest. Almost 35K spent on Legal over a period of almost 2 years.

What was left was mostly used to buy ex out of Family Home. Another thing that pees her off. I got to keep the 4 bedroom house and she now lives in 2 bedroom house with son. However, as Judge pointed out 2 bedrooms are sufficient for 2 people.

Oh please, after spending all your working life as an ex pat 35,000 over 2 years is not that much for you.

Oh please, after spending all your working life as an ex pat 35,000 over 2 years is not that much for you

You don't know how much was spent on ex-wife before and during the marriage and the amount I needed to buy her out of the Family Home.

A property in her native country. Versace, Louis Vuitton, Rolex, business class travel everywhere, etc. Then there was the Stepdaughters education...........

So not exactly on your uppers to afford that lot. You do know at your son's age the court would take his opinion into account.

You do know at your son's age the court would take his opinion into account

Yes. My parents' neighbour's Granddaughter did same at similar age. Wanted to stay with her father instead of mother. Reasons given by child was that Mother was often on the floor drunk (true) and that she had nobody to play with where the mother lived. So preferred to be with Father as his new Wife had 2 daughters similar age from previous marriage.

Outcome was that Child was never given permission again by her Mother for Father to take her out of the Country on holiday. As the Mother was now NRP as opposed to RP she had to pay CM to her ex husband. She saw that as paying for the New Wife's holiday so prevented the child from going on holiday.

As I have been Non UK Resident for all of child's life I have been advised by Legal that my testimony alone would carry little weight. It would all be down to the Child's testimony that he considered his Grandparents to be more suitable than his mother.

Ex would never agree as it would cost her £1,015 per month in benefits and CM. If she was left only with her Part Time minimum wage and WTC and SM (which will end in 2 years time) she would not be able to run her house, car, holidays, etc.

Child is a dual Citizen of UK and his Mother's native Country (which is not in EU and also outside the Hague Convention). So if she felt a custody case was not going her way she could soon whisk him off to her native Country (there are flights leaving the UK everyday and it is something she has threatened many times in the past for which I have records) and that would possibly be the last anyone in UK saw of him again.

If she did take him to her home country she would loose cm, sm and state benefits. Given how materialistic you have said she is, that would seem unlikely.

The big issue I have is that you can only challenge a CMS assessment if the real income is over 25% lower than the assessment.

That can make a big difference and can mean paying maintenance outs of money the non resident parent doesnt have.

Thinking of a scenario where, for example:

Year 1 income is 94000 but non resident parent does 25,000 overtime in order to pay for something specific for his family.

Assessment is on Year 1 income including overtime

But year 2 there is no overtime available. They can't challenge it as its not low enough.

To Sue51

Correct, she would lose all of those things. However, at FDA she was instructed to produce bank statements for the accounts she had in her home country, but never did. I wonder why? Could it be that there is money hidden there that had been dripped into her accounts whilst she was in UK. I found a whole pile of western union documents for transfers to her family in native country.

Rent from the house she has in UK would be a good pension compared to living costs in her native country too.

To WoolyThoughts

The plus or minus 25% change in income before CMS reassessment Of Maintenance is way too high. Can penalise both parties.

NRP gets a 24% rise, but RP receives same as before. Likewise if NRP earns 24% less than when they were first assessed they have to pay the same!

I had thought my earlier reply posted but seems to have been lost.

50:50 asset split is in my area which includes several courts is becoming standard. Judges quote the "no undue hardship but that doesn't mean no hardship". I work in this area so see the judgements and it appears to be more prevalent with newly appointed judges.

I accept it's not all judges but equally it is happening.Since family court doesn't make any information available we have to rely on studies that show RP and women are financially disadvantaged after divorce and men are beneficiaries.
I don't see where the myth of RPs living in luxury comes from, most are getting by or struggle financially.

High earners pay up to a flat rate then they pay no more under CMS guildlines. Very high earners therefore pay less % wise than average earners.
A RP would have to apply to court to receive an assessment over the flat rate. Given the cost of the legal process it is a barrier to RPs and favours very high earning NRPs.

@missedtheboat, you use phrases such as your ex is ,"living in luxury" on £1k per month. Even if your Ex spent 50% of the £650 on herself it would hardly afford her a luxury lifestyle. Not sure how many fancy lunches, shoes and holidays anyone could afford on 4k p.a

I think you need to get real about how tough her life is and be grateful she has stayed to look after your son despite the difficulties.Especially is she is away from family so has hardly any support.

I simply don't believe that you can't get a job in the UK on a reasonable salary. I have contacts in your sector and know it's not the case, commercial roles are always available...unless you have a problematic CV??
I think honesty is best and you could get more respect if you said you liked your lifestyle and that is the reason.

Your son can choose who he wants to live with..you could get a PSO to stop his mum travelling abroad if flight risk was a genuine concern.I assume he has a UK passport.

I suspect deep down you feel guilty for being an absent father but rather than deal with those feelings you are projecting all negative thoughts onto your Ex.

I hope your son is ok, he won't be having a great day to day life life as his mum must be struggling to keep afloat on 12k plus part time salary. At least she is there for him and perhaps he really values her role.

Working 16 hours per week in return for £2,225 per month in hand and having no rent or Mortgage to pay is not a tough life.

My CV is very problematic for UK Employers as it has £150K+ Tax Free packages written on it from 2005 to 2015 (The Oil Boom Years).

Son wants to stay with Grandparents when his mother is at work, but for some odd reason ex prefers him to stay with a Childminder that costs more per hour than she earns!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@lifebegins50 There is no 50/50 rule. It is a starting off point but more often than not it is not the end result, the reason being all the factors mentioned in s25. You say you work in this area. Would you mind saying in what capacity?

You mentioned a Mostyn judgment. Is there a particular one you would like to draw to my attention?

I am guessing the Case lifebegins50 means can be seen on the following link:

www.stowefamilylaw.co.uk/blog/2015/02/20/divorce-high-court-reaches-5050-split-decision/

However, in the closing remarks of the Judgement the following is stated:

The total receipt by the wife will be, inclusive of pension assets, £3,007,491 out of total assets, matrimonial and non-matrimonial, of £5,935,981 or 50.7%. That it is very close to equality overall is a coincidence. But a result that divides equally assets of £6m while leaving the husband with his earnings is not uncommon and is certainly not unfair.

So even the Judge acknowledged the fact that his ruling resulted an almost equal split was COINCIDENCE. Don't see how that could interpreted as setting a precedence that assets must always be split 50:50

@MissedTheBoatAgain

There's no reason to put your salary package on your CV. It's very clear that you are stuck in some behaviours and unable to see past blaming your wife for everything, so there's not much point people communicating with you. With the income you've had you have plenty of options.

I get £5 a month for 2 children. That's not a typo. So my ex really isn't paying for everything. He's unemployed so it's not worth the hassle of pursuing him for more as I'd not really get much and I have the satisfaction of managing without him at the moment.