Need help please - contact order, abuse and 8 year old daughter self harming and threatening to kill herself over it

[CheeseandGherkins]

I've posted about issues before but have been thinking hard about posting this or not. I've name changed as I don't want other people finding out but I'm happy to say who I am usually if needed here (just so username can't be searched) definitely not a troll.

It's a long story but basically I divorced the dc's father (dd 8, ds1 nearly 7 and ds2 3) because of domestic violence in the relationship which the children witnessed some of too. He still denies this though even though they saw it too.... They were staying with him every other weekend until a few months ago when dd suddenly didn't want to see him any more.

I tried to help and suggested ways or taking it slowly with her, taking her to the cinema, out for walks, phone calls etc but it didn't help at all. She told me she didn't want to see him because she remembered the violence and was scared and hated him. So I took her to the gp.

At this appointment she said that her father hits ds1. This was the first I'd heard of it. Gradually more and more came out (one weekend ds1 and ds2 went alone to stay with him). I had concerns all the time which I addressed with ex in person and via email about the children coming home hungry a lot, not being looked after properly etc but finally stopped overnight contact when they told me he wasn't getting up in the mornings with them but sending them downstairs alone to watch tv for a few hours to wait for him to get up. During this time they went hungry and thirsty as they weren't allowed to get their own drinks.

Last contact was a few weeks ago (weekend day contact) and he brought ds2 back soaked with wee, shoes, socks, pants and trousers and pants starting to dry. All this denied again.

2 nights later they tell me what else he had done to them. Thrown them about, mainly ds1 onto the floor/against hard sofa so they cried and it hurt, dragged upstairs, pulled about, shouted in face, called names including little bastard etc; once threw ds2 because he asked him to read him a book

Obviously at this point I stopped contact completely and was extremely upset that they'd been through all that. They were upset too. Don't want to see him and dd is adamant about that fact especially.

I called social services and reported it to the police. SS said cutting contact was best thing to do but wouldn't investigate yet as he won't be seeing them so not in danger, only if contact was reinstated would they get involved more. I took dc's back to gp and they told them too.

Dd saying all the time that she hates him, refuses to call him dad at all (same as ds1) and is very upset about it all. They said they were too scared to tell me what was happening before in case he hurt them more.

I'd called woman's aid before all this came out to try to help the dcs and was trying to arrange counselling, encouraged dd to keep a diary based on what they said too.

Ex came to house weekend before last shouting, swearing and threatening, luckily my partner got the door but children were in the house and were terrified. He ended up kicking/punching the door after it was shut. Called police and they took another statement, ex got a harassment warning.

After contact was stopped I received a letter about the house (ex still on mortgage) asking about getting off it, not clear if he wants any money as he said he would leave it to me (my dad paid for most of it all ex paid was a few years interest payments while he worked but I looked after the children and I've paid it since, he also got a car out of it as his car was put on the mortgage so he has that for free) and then a contact order. Court initial hearing is in August.

Dd has been unable to sleep properly, any little noise and she runs down the stairs to see what it is and is so disturbed by it all. Ended up last week screaming histerically saying she wants to kill herself because if she's dead she won't have to see him and self harming, she was hitting her head with objects and trying to scratch her eyes, also said she would break the window and put the glass in her eyes so she couldn't see.

I calmed her, talked and cuddled her and she just said she hates him and never wants to see him again. I took her to the gp the next day who is chasing referral to school nurse, referred to education psychologist and seeing her weekly until she can speak to someone.

Turns out dd also spoke to teachers about it all last week as I went in to see the head today to inform them about her and they wanted to speak to me about it as she was crying and upset in school. They had no concerns about safety as the dcs live with me and dd told them there is no contact with father.

Sorry for this being so long but I wanted to get as much as possible down. I've probably left things out but that's about it. I'm getting a new solicitor this week (waiting for call back today as last one wasn't as good as I'd hoped) but I'm terrified of what will happen at this hearing.

Waiting for court to get back to me about the form I returned as I wrote all the violence on it and also spoke to cafcass and they also advised to cut contact.

Obviously I'm asking for no contact but I've read that contact granting is likely. I am terrified of what dd will do if she has to see him and ds1 and ds2. When ds1 and ds2 went to see him alone he shouted at them both and dragged them about again demanding to know why dd wasn't there too They're kids ffs. I hate feeling so powerless in all this. What can I do?

My poor children are so scared of being hurt by him yet again and you can see it in their eyes how scared they are even when he's mentioned. They've seen him from the car before and just nearly cried and been terrified. He lives almost opposite us too....

Ds1 has had anger problems which the gp now says is because of his treatment by his father, he's had play therapy in school and is due for more next term, also referring dd this time as well. They have so much anger, emotion and everything else inside them that they don't know what to do with It is very clear though that they hate him for what he's done to them and never want to see him again.

What can I actually do? What is likely to happen at this hearing?

Thanks if you got this far!

If the judge has ordered supervised sessions then I'm afraid you have to go. If you don't it reflects badly on you and the emphasis may shift to enforcing the court order, which may make the situation even worse. I know it is hard but you need to make sure that you are the reasonable, co-operative parent.

Just spoken to my solicitor and she needs to apply for a change to my funding to be able to take it back to court for a variation to the order, considering the distress it's causing the children.

I don't see how any of this is moral at all, it's disgusting that children that have already been abused are being put through more abuse but legally!

It's ludicrous that the children have to go through so much on the whim of an abusive parent, he's seen all the reports on dd and how it's been affecting her, ds1 and ds2 and he still is carrying on with proceedings! What sort of father would do that knowing how much anguish it's causing his children? I know it's all about the control for him but I'm amazed that he shows so little compassion, none in fact. I shouldn't be surprised I guess but I find it shocking.

Cheeseand gherkins I have been 'following; your thread and am appalled at the treatment that has been meted out to you and your lo in the name of the law.
Can you possible make yourself go into that courtroom and look into the judges eyes and ask him if he orders contact if he would be willing to be personally held responsible for the resulting distress that is caused.Can't he see that as you said in your last sentence it is not right.
I really feel for you and only hope you get a reasonable person on the bench, go in there and shame them for what they are doing. Cry, and everthing, he has to see.

what did the contact centre report? was there an order for reports to be made back to court/cafcass? what did the contact centre staff see?

have you taken the children straight to doctog/GP/psychologist? you need to get the stress recoded by profressional.

sorri you and they have to go thru this - but i dont see that judge had much choice - he had to order supervised contact but you need to make sure any distress is recorded straight away and noted by the contact centre staff - so take them to the GP same day or on the monday. is GP supportive?

explain to DD it is out of your hands - but that you doing everything you can to support. take her to GP today and have her speak to GP (or psychologist if you can) .

if needs be make a permanent monday morning apointment at GP for next three weeks to follow the contact sessions. your word wont count sadly - you need to get the dcs views/reactions recorded.

is there also a school teacher you can contact now tho it is holidays? when are they back to school?

how much does dd udnerstand about the process? i did explain to my dd then 9 that she ahd to go to contact centre because the judge said so - she did get it.

in fact fortunatley teh sessiosn went well - but clealry in your case it isnt working - so you need to say "you need ot do these three sessions then explain to GP/psychologist/therpaist how you feel so they can tell the judge"

it think is helpful to look at what you can control and what you cannot from your won view point - clealry you cant control what judge decides - but you can react after and try and get tehm support they need, and also react by makign those appoitnemtns with GP so dcs can tell GP what they feel - or GP can see and record their stress.

can you also ask CAFCASS offcier to come visit them on the monday after contact to talk to them?

was it supervised and recorded contact? surely contact centre recording what happens...

sorri typos

Thanks mamas, I'm going to try and go in when we go back, I don't want to look like I'm putting anything on though; I was literally crying and shaking last time and I didn't even go in. Definitely going to do my best as I know it will probably help.

ceslavielife, I don't know what they've reported yet, I'm assuming they do it at the end of the 3 sessions, a level 2 report was ordered. I didn't take them to the dr as I didn't think there was anything they could do but I can definitely do that. I have a couple of small videos of dd when she was upset to show the psych nurse when we go back so I do have that. I've been keeping a record of everything myself. Drs appointments tend to take over a week to get unless it's an emergency.

The contact centre staff came to the car so they both saw that dd and ds1 would not get out and that dd was very upset. I'll try and get an appointment with a gp, it won't be the normal one probably as it takes weeks to get one with a specific dr but the one we've been seeing is very good.

The acting head at school was very good and sympathetic so I can get in touch with her when they go back. They actually changed the classes round for this term and dd was separated from her best friend which casused her so much distress (due to all the stress outside of school) that they changed her back so they are very aware and helpful.

I have explained to dd, she does understand everything and knows that's what we have to do but it doesn't make it any easier for her. I try to keep them as informed as possible without being inappropriate.

I didn't realise I could ask the cafcass officers to come out and see anything, the one at the court was very unhelpful and bullying tbh, she said I was being difficult because I wouldn't agree to supported contact!

Yes it is supervised contact, someone always there recording what happens and will be reported back to court. Thank you for you help and advice, it's very appreciated.

you are doing all the right things - it is so important you get someone else to wtiness the distress: teachers, GP so it will be on record.

not sure how helpful CAFCASS will be but it is worth calling your named person (and emailing if you can) and giving a record of how the children were after - just make it very factual.

"before the sssion dd said "xxx". The contact centre staff came to the car so they both saw that dd and ds1 would not get out and that dd was very upset. , afterwards she cried and went to her room [or whatever]. she said she wanted to xxxx. the next she she xxxxx"

you could also record what you saw before and after the contact session.

keep your factual records, give them to GP/teacher so they have a copuy too and can coroborate with how they see the children....

this puts you in a position of feeling you are doing somethng as well, not just sitting and waiting...

maybe dd can also keep a record/diary? or ask her to draw pictures and keep them...keep copies... do they have an appt with the psych nurse booked?

my dd drew a picture showing all the things her dad had promised her and not delivered on - i so wish i kept a copy of it.

Thanks again. Dd is self harming again and has got 10 times worse today again because it's contact tomorrow :( She is totally distressed and won't be reasoned with at all. I'm not sure how much more of this I can take so god knows how she must be feeling. My poor baby :(

I can't believe she is having to go through this. My mum is here and sat with her at the moment but she won't talk :( God, what can I do?

Can your mum sit in with her during the contact?. Is that allowed if she can sit on your mums lap not saying anything just being a comfort for her.

My mum can't even if they allowed her. Dd still wouldn't go in regardless who was with her as she feels so strongly about it. My mum is a carer for my paralysed father so can't be away from him for that length of time.

I have posted on this thread previously and followed what you have been going through.

I despair at the state of the Family Law system at present. It is quite correct that all children have a right to see and maintain and relationship with both parents but not when there is a risk to the child.

The Judge relies heavily upon CAFCASS, an organisation deemed unfit for purpose. A coalition of those involved in the Family Law System have expressed their real concerns to the government recently that CAFCASS cannot be relied upon to be the voice of the child in the courts.

A finding of fact hearing may well have to happen and this is incredibly stressful often taking place over a number of days. Decisions are made upon balance of probabilities. My understanding is that recently the Family Courts are placing the emphasis upon whether a finding of fact hearing would make a difference to the eventual outcome of the case as to whether it goes ahead or not. In your case, it does seem that this needs to happen.

You will need a good barrister. They are variable in the extreme so dont be afraid to express a preference to your solicitor - ask around. I have seen from mediocre to excellent. I dont know what area you are in but I do know an excellent barrister who still undertakes legal aid family cases.

A guide to current thinking is on Family Law Week which posts judgements in recent cases. It often makes unhappy reading.

Your poor daughter needs your love, support and reassurance before and after contact.

what happned yesterdays cheese? i hope you got it recorded re her distress/ you can also access medical support if she self harming by taking her to A&E . again, for records purposes...

so sorri you going thru this. take her to go tuesday first thing t get it recorded

Cheese :( Reading your OP made me feel physically sick. I really feel for all of your kids and you. He is a nasty bastard. Our legal system is so faulty :(

I think this thread is best kept for legal advice and advice from others who have been through it, who can offer your proper advice OK - so I'll come & talk to you on your other thread x

Thanks Elsie, I hope something happens next and not just more contact being ordered as the children are so upset over it all. My solicitor has been representing me in court and is in court a lot so I assume she'd be capable if things go further. I really like her, I had a different one before who was rubbish, to say the least. I'm in Cambs. Totally agree with you about supporting my daughter, I'm doing everything I can and we were back at the drs today too to get everything written down.

cestlavie, managed to get in to the drs today so we got all that noted down. We're due back at the mental health service place on Friday so I'll be telling them everything that's happened as well. As for contact, only ds2 (3 and a half) went in again, both ds1 and dd refused to go in. They were both really scared in the car and she felt very sick, we've had the same effects afterwards too. All three have been upset, anxious, not sleeping properly and generally affected by it. Dd in particular has been upset and ds1 very angry and clingy. Both ds1 and ds2 have been very, very clingy to me and ds1 has been sucking his blanket again and carrying it everywhere with him, he hasn't been needing it during the day for ages only at night but he is now (he's almost 7).

Thanks chippingIn, I can hardly believe it's real and happening sometimes, especially when ex knows what this is doing to the children yet he still persists :( He isn't the one that has to deal with them when they're upset, crying, not sleeping etc nor watch dd sob her heart out and self harm :( Really breaks my heart hearing her say those things and being so obviously distressed, poor poor baby.

I honestly can't understand a man putting his children through this, to me it seems even more cruel that what he did to them originally, which was too awful for words.

It is beyond belief that with his background and what the children have said - that they are forced into going to the contact centre to see him - it's barbaric.

Our legal systems leaves far too much to be desired :(

Tell DD that there are a lot of adults out there that do believe them, that wish they could stop the other adults making them go to see him and that think they are lovely, brave children and want to send them big hugs, that wish she would stop hurting herself and talking about killing herself because of him - he isn't worth it.

(Does she feel responsible for her brothers getting hurt and not telling you?)

I can't imagine how much it's completely breaking your heart as it's certainly hurting mine just reading it.... it's times like this I wish I was in a postion to do something, to get laws changed, to help these kids, to change things....

so sorri....

judge only ordered three sessions right?

so only one more to get thru...

• hopefully the camhs psychologist will put their profressional oar in and do something to stop this... and reassure your dd that there are other adults on her side too.

do you think your ex really knows/understands/is ready to back off... or truly believes it is all about him and his rights?

Thank you ChippingIn, it's been awful and I just don't know what to do anymore.

cestlavie yes 3 sessions, last one is this sat and then back to court next Wednesday (penciled in apparently any my solicitor will let me know). I need to find out still what will happen at the next court date, I really don't know.

Ex has seen the papers stating everything that the children have been doing and going through so he must just not care. How he can read what dd has been doing and still carry on with this is beyond me. All he seems to care about is himself and not the children at all. My solicitor also thinks it's about control for him, on his application to the court he put (when asked why he is doing the app) that he wanted to be able to stop me from preventing contact or something along those lines; not that he wants to see his children! She thought that was very telling.

They want us in at 10-12 on Sat again too, this is after I requested afternoon appointments due to my pregnancy spd being worse in the mornings...clearly he's asked for mornings, imo, because of the football or some other plans he's made. I'm feeling so fed up of it all and losing any and all faith I had in this country's legal system. It's just disgusting.

may be difficult to change session due to staff or other clients. but at least will hopfeully be the last one.... is there someone in RL who can help with getting dcs ready in the morning?

ask your solicitor to chase the reports from the contact centre - make sure solicitor is she she has copies; dont rely on centre sending them to court.

Yes dp helps but he has health problems himself, very complicated but can't do much basically and has constant pain due to lupus, multiple dvts (one of which nearly killed him, pulmonary) etc.

The lady from the contact centre told me the reports would all be with my solicitor by Wednesday and that they'd noted down all mine and the childrens' anxieties, we'll see what they say I guess.

Any ideas what will happen at the hearing next week? Nothing has been asked to be prepared so I don't see how it can be anything in depth and I also don't see how they could order more contact before reports happen because of the reactions and their refusal to go in.

Getting ready for another (hopefully last) session now...

Yes dp helps but he has health problems himself, very complicated but can't do much basically and has constant pain due to lupus, multiple dvts (one of which nearly killed him, pulmonary) etc.

The lady from the contact centre told me the reports would all be with my solicitor by Wednesday and that they'd noted down all mine and the childrens' anxieties, we'll see what they say I guess.

Any ideas what will happen at the hearing next week? Nothing has been asked to be prepared so I don't see how it can be anything in depth and I also don't see how they could order more contact before reports happen because of the reactions and their refusal to go in.

Getting ready for another (hopefully last) session now...

how did it go?

Went the same as last time, contact reports had and seem biased towards him, lots of his feelings and what he thinks in them but nothing about what I said....There were not all positive for ex but it isn't exactly hard to sit and play with a year old for 2 hours.. They more or less called ds2 difficult as well, used lively instead but it was clear what they meant.

Twice during the 3 sessions ds2 (who is 3 and a half) questioned ex about what he did to them but according to the reports "managed to divert his attention" lol, like it doesn't matter and isn't worth letting him talk about how he feels?

I'm back at court this morning, leaving in a few minutes actually.

Good luck, Cheese. This must be just horrendous for you, I'm so sorry you're all having to go through this.