Need help please - contact order, abuse and 8 year old daughter self harming and threatening to kill herself over it

[CheeseandGherkins]

I've posted about issues before but have been thinking hard about posting this or not. I've name changed as I don't want other people finding out but I'm happy to say who I am usually if needed here (just so username can't be searched) definitely not a troll.

It's a long story but basically I divorced the dc's father (dd 8, ds1 nearly 7 and ds2 3) because of domestic violence in the relationship which the children witnessed some of too. He still denies this though even though they saw it too.... They were staying with him every other weekend until a few months ago when dd suddenly didn't want to see him any more.

I tried to help and suggested ways or taking it slowly with her, taking her to the cinema, out for walks, phone calls etc but it didn't help at all. She told me she didn't want to see him because she remembered the violence and was scared and hated him. So I took her to the gp.

At this appointment she said that her father hits ds1. This was the first I'd heard of it. Gradually more and more came out (one weekend ds1 and ds2 went alone to stay with him). I had concerns all the time which I addressed with ex in person and via email about the children coming home hungry a lot, not being looked after properly etc but finally stopped overnight contact when they told me he wasn't getting up in the mornings with them but sending them downstairs alone to watch tv for a few hours to wait for him to get up. During this time they went hungry and thirsty as they weren't allowed to get their own drinks.

Last contact was a few weeks ago (weekend day contact) and he brought ds2 back soaked with wee, shoes, socks, pants and trousers and pants starting to dry. All this denied again.

2 nights later they tell me what else he had done to them. Thrown them about, mainly ds1 onto the floor/against hard sofa so they cried and it hurt, dragged upstairs, pulled about, shouted in face, called names including little bastard etc; once threw ds2 because he asked him to read him a book

Obviously at this point I stopped contact completely and was extremely upset that they'd been through all that. They were upset too. Don't want to see him and dd is adamant about that fact especially.

I called social services and reported it to the police. SS said cutting contact was best thing to do but wouldn't investigate yet as he won't be seeing them so not in danger, only if contact was reinstated would they get involved more. I took dc's back to gp and they told them too.

Dd saying all the time that she hates him, refuses to call him dad at all (same as ds1) and is very upset about it all. They said they were too scared to tell me what was happening before in case he hurt them more.

I'd called woman's aid before all this came out to try to help the dcs and was trying to arrange counselling, encouraged dd to keep a diary based on what they said too.

Ex came to house weekend before last shouting, swearing and threatening, luckily my partner got the door but children were in the house and were terrified. He ended up kicking/punching the door after it was shut. Called police and they took another statement, ex got a harassment warning.

After contact was stopped I received a letter about the house (ex still on mortgage) asking about getting off it, not clear if he wants any money as he said he would leave it to me (my dad paid for most of it all ex paid was a few years interest payments while he worked but I looked after the children and I've paid it since, he also got a car out of it as his car was put on the mortgage so he has that for free) and then a contact order. Court initial hearing is in August.

Dd has been unable to sleep properly, any little noise and she runs down the stairs to see what it is and is so disturbed by it all. Ended up last week screaming histerically saying she wants to kill herself because if she's dead she won't have to see him and self harming, she was hitting her head with objects and trying to scratch her eyes, also said she would break the window and put the glass in her eyes so she couldn't see.

I calmed her, talked and cuddled her and she just said she hates him and never wants to see him again. I took her to the gp the next day who is chasing referral to school nurse, referred to education psychologist and seeing her weekly until she can speak to someone.

Turns out dd also spoke to teachers about it all last week as I went in to see the head today to inform them about her and they wanted to speak to me about it as she was crying and upset in school. They had no concerns about safety as the dcs live with me and dd told them there is no contact with father.

Sorry for this being so long but I wanted to get as much as possible down. I've probably left things out but that's about it. I'm getting a new solicitor this week (waiting for call back today as last one wasn't as good as I'd hoped) but I'm terrified of what will happen at this hearing.

Waiting for court to get back to me about the form I returned as I wrote all the violence on it and also spoke to cafcass and they also advised to cut contact.

Obviously I'm asking for no contact but I've read that contact granting is likely. I am terrified of what dd will do if she has to see him and ds1 and ds2. When ds1 and ds2 went to see him alone he shouted at them both and dragged them about again demanding to know why dd wasn't there too They're kids ffs. I hate feeling so powerless in all this. What can I do?

My poor children are so scared of being hurt by him yet again and you can see it in their eyes how scared they are even when he's mentioned. They've seen him from the car before and just nearly cried and been terrified. He lives almost opposite us too....

Ds1 has had anger problems which the gp now says is because of his treatment by his father, he's had play therapy in school and is due for more next term, also referring dd this time as well. They have so much anger, emotion and everything else inside them that they don't know what to do with It is very clear though that they hate him for what he's done to them and never want to see him again.

What can I actually do? What is likely to happen at this hearing?

Thanks if you got this far!

hi

been through this myself.....

cafcass were amazing...they should spek to each child alone. with my younger ones they used drawings...asked them to draw their family (no picture of dad...very telling). she got the childrens views,the older ones were listened to,and sort of disregardesd as they were almost teens.

the first hearing is usually conciliatory,seeing if you can agree on something....i offered phone contact,but in your case i'd not offer anything.

to be honest,i really just sat back and let ex use the court as his arena for all his faults to come out to play....he played into my hands with police involvement/tantrums. the court ended up giving him nothing

he also didnt turn up alot of the time

Poor you and the DC. I don't have any official knowledge, but just make sure all the authorities know about every incident and press for no contact. I also think he should be prosecuted for these attacks. What a bastard. They never should have to see him again IMO and if I was you, if possible, I would move away.

I just don't understand why an ex who has been violent to his partner is allowed to have his kids on his own. Why? How bloody disrespectful to the kids - oh he's attacked their mum, but hey they can be sent to stay with him

I think any parent who is on record as being violent / abusive should not get unsupervised contact until their DC are 18 and can decide for themselves.

I wish I could help - all I can offer is that you've written all this down very clearly and sensibly; it's easy to read and follow. Can you cut and paste it into a document to give to the new solicitor ahead of the meeting? It might speed things up a bit. The very best of luck.

just be honest and open with cafcass and other agencies.

what contact is he proposing?

Thanks so much everyone. I'm trying to get everything down and noted and making sure that the relevant authorities are involved. The police said that because there were no marks on the children that there was nothing more they could do at this time but that to definitely call back if anything happened in future...They did take a statement though.

Whitecherry that's good news about cafcass, the lady I spoke to on the phone was lovely and I was hoping that she might be there on the day.

It any contact likely to be given at this first hearing does anyone know? I guess they will want further investigation but could I get no contact until this is done at least?

Marine he denies it all, everything, according to him he's done nothing wrong and actually said he's "always done right by those kids", laughable. I hear what you're saying about that and it is something I've given serious thought.

Hassled, thank you, I think that's because I've had to go through it all so many times now with different people that it's fairly straight in my head, if you see what I mean.

He's asking for every other weekend contact and lied on the court form saying that he had them every other Tues and a week in holidays, 1 day every half term too! Easily provable lie but a lie nonetheless. His solicitor even called my old one asking if contact can be reinstated before the initial hearing! Not a chance.

I've been brutally honest about everything with everyone involved, it helps that the dcs are also willing to talk to people, dd is literally crying out for help in that respect and while I can help her as much as I can with talking I want her to have some professional help .

ok,being honest,you're going to have a fight on your hands here. the fact he's not admitting anything means the onus is on you to prove it all happened. you didnt see it. the kids are young....its not going to be easy

i doubt contact will be re instated as you have welfare issues. a 'finding of facts' will be conducted in tme for second hearing. cafcass will interview you both separately as well as the dc. sometimes they will see dad WITH the children. depends

www.wikivorce.com residency forums are good

He doesn't know exactly what they've said went on there yet, this will all come out in court. The gp has spoken to the police and ss and he said that in his opinion the children are telling the truth. They've spoken to two different gps and dd has spoken to her teachers in school just last week as well, so it's not just one isolated event. I hope this will help in some way.

They are very clear and sure about what happened too. Their distress and terror of him is quite obvious. I'll do whatever I have to do to keep them safe .

No way will I let anyone see him and the children together when they, quite clearly, are terrified of him! I'm almost positive that the dr would make a statement to that effect too, she is very concerned about dd in particular.

Ex has proven himself to be a liar already so hopefully that will make a difference too.

I didn't think it would be easy, I really hope it will work out though for the children. I couldn't bear to put them through anything like that again

i hope it works too!! you're doing the best you can

your poor dd and ds's.

you can ask for no contact - but if ex starts to insist then make it clear they should have only supervised at a proper contact centre - there are levels of sueprvised contact, some is basic vomuntary run, but court can order proper observed and supervised with reports made to court.

look in your area for a contact centre -
www.naccc.org.uk/ and go visit and talk tot hem what procedures they woudl put in place etc.

you have enough profressionals supproting you GP, SS CAFCASS - they had contact and he blew it - now it has to be only supervised if at all.
you doing right thing in calling police etc if he comes round - you could also ask solicitor about an injunction if he comesround again .

this does all take time... i stopped contact after ex got agreesive in front of dcs (lots of otehr stuff wont go into now) , that was in the august 2008, we got a court hearing october, they ordered supervised contact, that took a while to set up, they saw him two hours before xmas supervised by CAFCASS (he turned up 20 minutes late for his 2 hours!) , then because he refused to pay his share of contact centre (i had said let's pay privately so it can happen quicker...) he got CAFCASS to pay but the sessions didnt start til the april 2009....

so it can take a while...use this to buy you time and refuse any contact other than properly supervised and recorded, at a proper contact centre.

you can offer letterbox contact for now so he can write or eamil them.

i wouldnt do skype / phone unless dcs really want....

now ex has unsupervised with dds and it going"ok" - not brilliant espec with older dd; no overnights yet, and at the moment he onlys sees oldest ds who has autism and learning diffs with supervision.

you doign the right thing, let your dd know you doing everythig to keep her safe now, and that she wont have to see dad; if there is sign dad will fight to visit them then explain to dd it will only be under very supervised conditions with another adult present and not in his home.

my dds were clear with cAFCASS etc about seeing dad only with another adult present.... they now more cnfident about him - and a older 8 and 10 - tho get p$$d off with his promises he doesnt keep etc.

in short - you doing right thing; you ahve support of professionals and the only contact you should allow if he pushes for it is properly supervised at a contact centre.

Thanks I'll have a look at that, I had a call from the central referral unit today after the incident relating to domestic violence and she couldn't believe what he'd done to the children, she sounded shocked on the phone. Gave me a number for a solicitor that should be able to help too which is helpful as the other one couldn't take me on.

cestlavielife so sorry that you and dcs had to go through all that. I'm hoping that the supervised contact is the most he would get, preferably less as the children just don't want to go and I can't force an 8 and a half and nearly 7 year old to get in a car/get dressed etc.

Had more letters from his solicitors today with more lies in them from him. He's suggesting that all this started when he got a girlfriend because I'm jealous! How self centred and deluded can he get! It's the serious abuse that he's done to the children, and them that brought it up in the first place, that started it all and in fact, I didn't even know he had a girlfriend when they started telling me what had happened. From my point of view he's making this worse because I'm pregnant and he also wants to get off the mortgage, he's been hassling me about it for months now.

I'm finding it all so stressful and difficult to cope with. I know I'm doing the right thing but I'm also worried about the effect of all this stress on the baby. I've lost about a stone so far this pregnancy, I was about half a stone over what I usually was but I'm fairly slim as it is. I just don't seem to be able to put on weight.

I was in tears twice this morning, I'm so worried for my poor children and feel so guilty that I didn't know what was going on before. I should have been protecting them I feel absolutely awful that ex was able to hurt them over and over again for so long while I knew nothing. I can't stop thinking how scared they must have been while they were there with him How on earth can I be expected to put them through all that again?

If the school child protection officer hasn't reported/made an official record of what your daughter has been saying; then ask them to do so. Tell them that the more independent records of what has been going on the more chance you have of protecting them.

Get anyone they may have told to make a written record, preferably lodged with someone independent.

Do go and talk to the solicitor, hopefully they will be good. Be strong for your children.

Don't worry about your weight the baby will be fine, just try to have some you time to relax. Hug your DC and know they are safe.

you did what you thought was right - giving them contact with dad....

you wont have to put them thru that any more - he will at best get supervised contact (eg if he rpesents as loving dad at court and "i just want to see my children" ...and he will have to prove himself over a period of months -

now maybe he has the stamina to do that.....
my ex was model on supervised contact it is true, and i think he did realise he had to prove... so long as he doesnt regrerss into d depression/agression again the dds are ok with him, so long as he doesnt pressure them - they know i wont make them eg go overnight..

but the children come first. and they will at the end of it be older and you can work with psychologists /play therapists too ...

you have everyone on your side to allow ONLY supervised contact at the most at this point in time and you can amke sure this drags out over a long period of time - until the dcs are happy to be unsupervised, eg my ex had two hours a fortnight for a few months.

get a solicitor - then any letter from his solicitor you just pass to yours - you dont even need to read them - once you have instructed a solicitor you happy with then s/he will tell his solicitor to correspond directly with him/her. so you really can be out of the loop and only need to be informed by your solicitor on relevant stuff where you need to make a specific decision.

you may find that dcs will want to see him after a few months - and eg if they visit a contact centre, meet the supervisors, might be ok and even want to - he is their dad. right now, no, and let sometime pass, let him have letterbox contact if he pushes for it .

mine didnt want to see him at all intially after events, but with time yes they did.....a friend of mine has explained it, she went thru similar- that this person is their dad and there will be (or might be) that curiosity... espec if he has also displayed "nice" behaviour to them previosuly... (if he has just always been ansty then could be different...)

you have to leave door opent o them to contact him if they want to...later...

go seek advice re mortgage - the less ties the better.

Thank you. I've now got a copy of the school report, they did it for me today.

I hope you're right cestlavielife, I dread to think what dd, in particular, would do if he were granted supervised contact let alone unsupervised.

I have a new solicitor now who seems lovely, I feel really reassured. Dropped all my paperwork off this morning to her, after spending 2 hours photocopying it all!

I understand what you mean about the contact in the future, and maybe they will. Right now dd would rather hurt herself than see him though and again today said she wanted to kill herself as she hates him Even said she hates him living so close and she was hitting herself again. This was after dr appt today which went well.

She is really struggling Dr has referred her straight to the psych people now as the school nurse/educational psych are taking too long and she said it's urgent. Think I may do another post asking how to help her and the boys as she doesn't know how to handle her emotions and I'm finding it hard to help her. Ds1 has anger problems, he uses that to express himself

Trying to sort the mortgage but apparently he's not prepared to "sign the house over at this point", after hassling me for months over it

Finding it so difficult

glad the GP made the referral - do ring them and follow up. also ask for ds to be seen by family therapist.

all this will help at court to get only supervised contact at the most.

This is really sad and I do wish you well.
Although I do not wish to be negative, I have recently been through a battle with my DS's father. He told CAFCASS and SS that his dad had hurt him, but the Judge said he could not take the word of a 3 1/2 year old.
It is very rare that there is no contact at all and do be aware that if contact resumes at a contact centre, this paves the way for future unsupervised contact.
Please dont think I am saying this will happen, you have spelt out your concerns very clearly and everything is recorded.
A lot depends on your CAFCASS officer; please be wary though. Our guardian was absolutely terrible. She failed to check father's background properly and I insisted on further checks. He had been convicted of ABH three times previously, all on school age children. She recommended contact at a contact centre.
Get a good solicitor. I wish you well.

the op's daughter is 8 and there is profressional involvement from GP / psychologists - those reports will hold weight.

check out the contact centres tho - there are varying degrees of supervision - some are church halls with volunteers, some much more "controlled" and give more commprehensive reports on contact for court - op could ask for psychologist/family therapist to be involved, given the situation, if there is to be contact and contact could take place only under supervision of a psychologist/family therapist - rather than "just" contact centre supervisor.

this could take a while to set up - which would be good thing in the circumstances .

the dad has to show he accepts there are issues and is willing tow ork with profressionals to resolve the dad/dd relationship...

Thank you for sharing your experience Elsie, I'm sorry to hear about your ds. I've read that no contact is rare but all I can do is present my concerns and relay what the children have told me. They're totally terrified of their father and have ongoing mental health issues because of it. We have good days and bad days, mainly dd and ds1, where they are overwhelmed by their experiences and find it impossible to cope with but the good days outnumber the bad thankfully.

We're trying to make their days as happy and nice as possible for them, creating all the good memories that children should have. Not that that will wipe out the bad ones but hopefully take their mind off it for long enough until they can speak to a professional about it (waiting for appointments).

ceslavielife - some of those contact centres sound worrying. I truely feel (as do gp, ss, even cafcass on the phone!) that contact is not in their best interests at this point. I think they need time to work through what has happened and deal with it with a psychologist before any contact is considered. I don't want them to be any more harmed by him than they already are and mental health is just as important as physical health.

Time is what they need right now, it's all too raw for them. We'll have to wait and see though. I'm going to make sure I have as much information for the first court date as possible though, just to be on the safe side, and take it all with me.

is cafcass writing a report with a recommendation? if they reocmmend "no contact2 then that will be listened to -

however if dad presents to judge (in the short time you get) as caring, feeling, wronged....then judge on the day could be entirely sympathetic to dad and order supervised contact.

so be pre-emptive - visiting local contact centres anyway.... ask the psychologist to write report etc... i think you have to show that you are not unwilling for contact to take place in the future under specified conditions (eg if cafcass say 2only with psychologist/family therapist" then so much the better....) , that your concerns are for childrens welfare/mental well being etc...

will depend a lot on how dad presents in court, how much of a show he puts on eg crying over seeing the children, showing judge photos of them, saying he just wants to be with them etc (as my ex did..) and on the judge themselves ... be very sure to make sure ALL reports have been presented to court before the hearing - do not rely on cafcass etc, make sure your solicitor has chased the reports and ensured they been rpesented to court.

on my second hearing judge had not read all papers properly, they had received them late, they had been mislaid...and it was all a mess...

what is your ex saying? what is his line? does he have a solicitor? have cafcass spoke to him?

Well I'm waiting for the first initial hearing, I contacted cafcass myself when I received a letter from them along with all the court date details etc. I advised them of the situation and asked if they'd made any checks with social service etc yet as they'd only just been informed and I wasn't sure they'd show up. They hadn't had anything back from ss but I know the gp have done a report for ss and also the police have spoken to them too. Would I need to ask them for a report before this hearing? I haven't met anyone from cafcass yet only spoken on the phone, but the lady I spoke to (who is the one I left a message for and she called back (my case worker?)) said that no contact was the best thing to do (and what I should be doing) under the circumstances.

I'm not sure what ex will say but I know he has a solicitor so assume they will be speaking for him? I'm just hoping that the letter from gp, school report and a psych letter (if dd has been seen by then) will make a difference, I'm also intending to contact ss and see if they can send me anything, will all mean that he gets no contact. If dd has to see him then I am very scared about how she will react and what she will do. Even the thought of seeing him has made her self harm and threaten suicide. Ds1 also is similarly scared of contact and even ds2 doesn't want to

If he underwent some sort of anger management course, parenting course etc and the children had their counselling and it was thought that they wouldn't be hurt mentally by having contact with him then I would be willing to help with that. I never had a problem with contact until the children told me what was happening. Obviously this would have to be in their time and not straight away at all, also build up gradually over months/years and not days/weeks and with careful measures in place to safeguard the children.

There is only 1 contact centre in the area (and that's about 15/20 miles away) that offers the proper supervised contact so I can try to visit that but I don't even think of that as an option at this stage because of the children, I hope anyway as I dread to think what it would do to their mental health. Dd has been self harming again too, she needs help managing her feelings and responses to her feelings. She does it hard too which is what worries me

Surely it shouldn't be about what he says or doesn't say but about what the children are saying? I sat in the gp and cried over what he's done to them, and at the school, being pregnant has made this even more of an emotional roller coaster for me. This stress isn't good for the baby either and I'll be about 23 weeks at this court date, I have bad pregnancies as well, quite high risk.

Ahh so instead, (or as well as?) taking things with me on the day I should make sure they are sent to the court beforehand?

All along he's said he's done nothing wrong, denies everything but as far as I know, he doesn't know the full extent of what the children have said yet. Obviously he knows what he did but he doesn't know they've actually spoken to me or anybody else about it. He does have a solicitor yes and is playing the hard done by "good father" line from what I can see. The harassment warning he's had shows he's volatile and violent as does his previous abuse of me, which the children heard and saw some of. So it isn't just 3 children saying he's hurt them, I'm an adult saying that he hurt me too and I've made a statement to the police saying certain things too so that's also on file. I know he's more than capable of doing a lot of damage.

I don't know if cafass have spoken to him, they didn't initially contact me, I contacted them. I've only just got my new solicitor so I still need to speak more to her, she was in court last week and I gave her all my paperwork late Thursday so I don't know if she's read it all yet. I know she was sending the funding form off right away but I'm going to give her a call tomorrow morning if I haven't heard from her by then.

it's hard.... you are doing all you can.

as was said to me by a therapist/family lawyer - you can only do what you can - the rest will be taken out of your hands.

you have cafcass and everyone backing you up and just need to pester them politely to make sure everything is in writing and presented to court on time. (your solicitor can do this too).

keep going back to GP so is all recorded.

Cheese, get letters from the teachers at your childrens school stating how they behaved and what they told the teachers.

I have an abusive ex, and the effect on my children from having unsupervised contact was incredibly alarming, however I had letters from their teachers and this was held as credible evidence in court...altho ex tried telling the judge that the headteacher was lying!!! The judge just stared at him as if ex was nuts ( which incidentally I believe he is).

I also had witnesses who had seen bruises on me which helped during the finding of facts hearing in court, if you have medical evidence that will be seen to be better than friends who are essentially repeating what they were told.

Write everything down, and when you see the CAFCASS officer, tell them exactly in so many words what has happened, don't be shy or reticent to call a spade a spade, I learnt that the hard way.

Poor you, and your poor children. Good luck.

Well my solicitor can't do anything until the funding is in place and that's just been sent off so may not even be sorted by the time the hearing is in August, 3 weeks on Friday. I'll need to sort things myself as I don't have the money to pay for her to deal with it privately. What do I need to get from people before then? I gather I should send it to the court but I'm not sure I'll have time to get it and then send to them to read before then. Would it be OK to take on the day? I can send what I currently have now which is the report from the school, copy of harassment warning and I should be getting a letter from the dr today

They break up for summer tomorrow so I think what I have (the report about what dd told them) will be all I get at this point from them.

My mum saw bruises as did the dcs from ex but I didn't report anything at the time, was too scared to.

I've been keeping notes of times/dates etc and what's happened so that I have everything written down, I just hope it'll be enough.

Any more tips on what I should do before the hearing? I only have 3 weeks too. I've sent a contact message to the contact centre so I'm waiting for a call back from them too, just in case. Thanks for all the advice so far, I really appreciate it.

Not an expert, but just wondered if drawing and painting would help your dd express/deal with her feelings.

Sometimes, once feeling are out they are easier to handle. Also, if the drawings/paintings show signs of disturbance they are, in a way, a sort of evidence.

Hope things go well for you at the hearing.

We had the hearing and cafcass recommended supported contact, the judge ordered supervised for 3 sessions the first of which was last sat. I couldn't face going into the chambers so my solicitor spoke for me, she thinks it would have been better if I had been able to speak to the judge but I almost collapsed just from being there let alone being in a room with ex. I don't think I can face him and we're due back in a couple of weeks :(

Only the youngest went into the contact centre, tempted by the staff with toys...and I wasn't happy about it at all, ex also turned up 30 odd mins late.

Since that day all the children have been severely affected by it, the have gone back to square one. Not sleeping properly, not eating properly, nightmares, behavioural issues, clinging to me, using blankets again where they didn't before and most worryingly dd started self harming again and said she wants to kill herself. I'm supposed to put them through it all again on saturday....

They don't want to see him or go there at all and how can I force them and put them through such pain yet again? This stress is making me ill too, surely there is something I can do about it?

My solicitor said the other side are being very hostile and that she thinks they'll have me back in court again by wednesday if we don't go...