Mumsnet is getting worse

[LondonMummer]

Seriously. Is it the same few people just name changing or is it really this toxic in the UK? There is so much poisonous Jewish hatred on here. I'm not talking hatred of Israel, just vile antisemitism on so many posts now.

I truly think I have to step away before I lose faith in humanity. Why does MN seem to attract so many hateful posters? Maybe it's the anonymity.

I can't keep calling it out. Im exhausted and actually deeply disturbed by it now.

@SomeCatFromJapan Thanks for your continued support, it's appreciated more than you know! You're right it's reactive and not working, and based very much on standalone posts (which often don't look antisemitic in isolation) rather than a poster's established pattern of basically turning up to every thread where there's a Jewish presence to goad, belittle and lie about Jews. With a side order of misinformation and 'woe is me I'm being bullied now'.

I don't know much about CST but they seem to do really good work and we're now considering donating to them. Realistically I don't see what they can do though apart from investigate and highlight in the media. But that would be very social media-focused. And like when the Labour EHRC report was published for instance, will just bring the same minimising and abuse supported by the same arguments from the same antisemites, who are very, very loud and more connected with other groups now. And with the language and behaviour towards Jews even more normalised now, it would be worse this time. At the end of the day MN cares more about traffic than optics, so the bad press would be no skin off their nose.

Crikey, anyone ever listen to James O’Brien on LBC ? On the whole I tend to agree with his stance on a lot of things like Brexit etc but I’m really surprised about his views on the conflict. Actually had to switch off the other day and am really disappointed in him. Just wondered if it was me ?

Oh I can’t stand him, so smug. Even when I agree with him I don’t want him on my team 😂

What was he saying? I went through a phase of listening to his podcast interviews with various celebs to entertain me while running in lockdown and couldn't believe how much he loved the sound of his own voice - he kept interrupting whoever he was interviewing, just to shoehorn his own opinion in!

He did one (I think with David Baddiel) in which he openly admitted to having been antisemitic in the past.

I definitely agree with this.

Have seen a few this morning.... it just gets worse. Elected governments should pay for their crimes only if they are Israel.As should the people of Israel. Regardless of Hamas linked terrorists being arrested in Europe that's absolutely not true. A narrative.

I don't know what to say anymore....

Is it just me or are some of these posters worse and worse? I almost wish the Mumsnet moderators would just let them post their blatant hatred for Jewish people (and Israel as a whole) so that people could see it more clearly.

I reported a horrible libel against a named Jewish person and MN said they’d only take it down if the report came from him directly. So now I have to decide whether to send him what these horrible trolls are saying about him or not. They put everything on us.

@cauliflowerwaterfall I think you have too. It's ridiculous that this is being forced upon us though. Perhaps we need some direct dialogue with Mumsnet hq?

I'm aghast at what is being allowed to stand on those boards.

@mnhq Please, I urge you to organise some antisemitism awareness training for your staff because this is really not making you look good. This is not about legitimate criticism of the Israeli government, but rank antisemitism.

It’s horrible I’ve been putting it off 😭 “here’s some antisemitism for you…” it’s not like it’s even something that’s difficult to disprove or the libel is contributing to the discussion in any way

I know what you mean. Sometimes you get to see it before the posts are deleted, sometimes they are zapped before you see it.

I was thinking yesterday that you know what? MN should just make the whole Middle East board into one big, massive thread. I mean just merge all the threads together into one gigantic messy chaotic thread with no relevant title at all. Because that's what's happening on the individual threads - some posters barge in, shout what they want to shout all over the threads with no relevance to the actual topic. They're determined to say what they want to say and believe it is "their right" to say it, no matter what. It's so, so disrespectful.

If you challenge it, apparently that means you want an "echo chamber" or you get told that "perhaps a discussion forum is not for you" 🙄

As regards moderation, etmoiandme has it right when she says up thread it's reactive and not working, and based very much on standalone posts (which often don't look antisemitic in isolation) rather than a poster's established pattern of basically turning up to every thread where there's a Jewish presence to goad, belittle and lie about Jews.

Absolutely.

I would add to this that derailing is impossible to report as well, it doesn't appear as one of MN's reporting categories and again, it's hard to spot from standalone posts. You have to read whole threads to see the same names cropping up to blast their opinions everywhere. I get that MN doesn't have the resources to read whole threads, but the derailing is blatant. So many threads that could have been valuable discussions involving a range of opinions have been wrecked.

@Bunshaped So many threads that could have been valuable discussions involving a range of opinions have been wrecked.

Yes, this is what's so frustrating. Sometimes MN is great for learning and there are genuinely very knowledgeable and informed posters amongst the bluster. There were a couple of Jewish women who posted frequently just after 7/10 and some of their posts on the history of the region were invaluable to me, but they haven't been back. I think one was an academic (or expert anyway) on Middle East history and politics and her posts were excellent.

The comments about the named Jewish person I saw, but it's been deleted now. Afraid to say I've found many of his views and comments on social media highly iffy myself over the last 5 years or so, but obviously that's just my opinion.

@WibbleWobbleFlop Yes, they are definitely getting worse.

But! I've said this before - the support between us Jews (and many allies on here) has been comforting and genuinely helpful. I guess we all sit at different ends - and many in between - of the political spectrum, including how we feel about Israel and the conflict, but I haven't seen that make any difference at all to how we actually engage with each other. All I've seen is respect between Jewish women and it's uplifting.

The derailing I just find funny now - it's frustrating but it's almost always by the same people that are the first to complain about derailing on other threads.

Stay strong x

It’s frustrating they can’t see a pattern in people who are obsessed with hating Jews. It’s constantly the same 1 or 2 accounts. Can’t they just block those people from the ME board?

The amount of sock-puppeting is insane too.

Yes the sock-pupetting is obvious. Also the posters who were constantly starting new threads every 5 minutes a few months ago have disappeared, but it's obvious some have name-changed because the writing style is so obvious. But again, they bring the traffic...

It's similar on other threads though - there's a lot of racism on MN towards Black people and every so often when a thread starts it's the same 'all lives matter' names that crop up. I think the BlackMumsnetters posters have similar issues being followed over to their board. I don't understand why they can't have their threads hidden like we do, which at least gives us a veil of protection (even though we know the antisemites from over there are spying over here, as they've confessed to anyway)!

@EllaDisenchanted absolutely. I don't know why that is not the case?

The Israeli estate agents supposedly selling prime beachside real estate in Gaza is a new level of madness/ gullibility. I swear my kids have better awareness of bullshit on social media than some posters over there!
The thing is that then someone else will read it and unquestioningly repeat it, and suddenly it becomes a "fact that I read about somewhere."

@etmoiandme sorry that was to you. Apologies @EllaDisenchanted

I did try. Not sure they care. Also, must be v difficult moderating this sort of thing. I mean, I often read a post being absolutely vitriolic towards me personally, and my default setting is to apologise and think they're right... Then I just take some quiet time and gather my thoughts, and realise maybe I'm not such an arsehole/idiot after all (although it's possible I am!). So making sense of all these attacks and counter-attacks, if you're not even paying close attention to the issues, is an enormous ask.

This is what gets me into trouble, not being able to let blatant malice and prejudice go unchallenged, even when it earns me an odd reputation apparently.

We're probably kidding ourselves that it makes any difference. People will seek out what they want to believe, and that's it. And outside of MN, people aren't that stupid, or at least I hope not.

@Pizdietz Also, must be v difficult moderating this sort of thing

Yes, I actually felt sorry for the moderators in the weeks directly after 7/10 because it was chaos on here and some posters were only just finding their feet with how to make their antisemitism more coded and subtle, so blatant hate speech posts were pretty much being deleted round the clock. And then they learned the 'how to be antisemitic without doing an antisemitism' techniques.

Yes, there are far fewer holocaust and nazi comparisons these days.

I would like to offer sympathy to all Jewish posters. If I want to get away from all the antisemitic crap I can just avoid the section. It chills me that you also experience it in real life too. The idea of security for children's parties in the UK is just horrifying. I'm so sorry that there are such shitty people out there.

@noblegiraffe You've been an amazing support (and no, I'm not fishing for another picture of JC in his undercrackers).

@etmoiandme there is always one ;)