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Infertility

Our Infertility Support forum is a space to connect with others in the same position, discuss causes, treatment and IVF, and share infertility stories of hope and success.

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bluepixie · 22/11/2021 11:39

@VenusStarr oh my heart is breaking for you
I’m so so sorry :(
Not to be morbid and hope u don’t mind but Make sure they send it off to check for abnormalities the nhs will do that after 3losses

Sending u so many hugs in this sad time :(

tiggerwhocamefortea · 22/11/2021 12:06

So sorry @VenusStarr

Gardenlady543 · 22/11/2021 12:39

Oh gosh @VenusStarr I'm crying :( I just don't know what to say. I'm heartbroken for you.

Janefx40 · 22/11/2021 12:40

@VenusStarr I'm so sorry. This is just devastating. Sending you so much love. I wish there was something I could say to make it better 💐

Porridgeislife · 22/11/2021 13:30

@Gardenlady543 5 days is much too early. I had HCG bloods on this 5dp6dt and had HCG of 1. My clinic made a mistake in booking them, when I freaked out at the result they said you are unlikely to record any.

6 days later I had HCG of nearly 300.

Porridgeislife · 22/11/2021 13:31

@VenusStarr I lurk a lot here rather than contribute but I just wanted to say how exceptionally sorry I am. Please take care of yourself.

VenusStarr · 22/11/2021 13:54

Thank you everyone 😢💔 just devastated. I can't believe it's happening again. My 6th baby 😢 my 4th mmc xx

bluepixie · 23/11/2021 07:50

Oh Venus :( it’s so hard. I’m so so sorry. I really thought the epau scan was promising.

@Gardenlady543 anything on frer today?

Gardenlady543 · 23/11/2021 08:26

@Cream123 6dp5dt BFN on FRER as per usual, this is the 4th transfer, 2 untested, 2 euploid. At this point I don't know what to do. It's been 2 years without any implantation. I'm speaking with the doctor at fertilysis today, I'm hoping he knows a lot about microflora and can advise. I expect I'll order the menstrual microbiome test they do. That way I can test the current microflora with my bleed after this cycle.

I don't know if I should repeat the ERA once the microflora is confirmed as normal (if that ever happens). Something doesn't seem right, the wording of the latest ERA report said "the gene profile shows similarity to a early receptive phase".

I'm not sure how long to keep trying for, I have 3 more euploid embryos and then another fresh cycle for this package. Maybe I should get to that point and then move on to a gestational carrier.

tiggerwhocamefortea · 23/11/2021 08:52

@Gardenlady543 so sorry it's another BFN. I can't remember if you had had NK cell testing done? The biopsy version?
Have you thought about a double transfer or would your clinic say no as they are euploid tested? X

Gardenlady543 · 23/11/2021 08:59

@tiggerwhocamefortea I have had uterine NK testing yes. I've had everything related to implantation failure:

  • Thrombophilia screen- heterozygous PAI, heterozygous MTHFR
  • Autoantibodies screen- normal
  • HSG- normal
  • Hysteroscopy- cervical stenosis- treated.
  • ERA x2 prereceptive and early receptive
  • EMMA/ALICE x2- both 0.00% lactobacillus
  • NK biopsy x2- normal and low - the professor said these are normal results.

To be honest I think if I said let's do a double at this point my specialist would probably say fine, the professor said I will have more luck with single transfers though due to the subtle differences in the lining between cycles. Of the 3 embryos I have left 2 are good and 1 is quite poor. So I might ask to do a single and then a double. Because the medications make me so ill, I'd hate to be on the last poor embryo and it doesn't survive the thaw.

bluepixie · 23/11/2021 09:07

I’m so so sorry @Gardenlady543. Only u know how many times to try if u have fight left in u then u have to keep going.
Now is not the time to answer these questions with certainty. U will know when u reach that stage. I was at it after my 6th mc and 4th ivf cycle. I was actively looking into surrogacy and 4 years of trying. if my son didn’t work I was going to do that and i had come to peace with that desicion and quite frankly was excited to get on with it and just get my baby.

U could chase immunes in even more depth? I’m not sure I believe in them but then I’m not sure what else there is to try….so seeing Gorgy bascucally…

What about a scratch the cycle before?

I’m trying to rack my brains for other things.

My era said the same

“ the gene profile shows similarity to a early receptive phase"

Xxx

Gardenlady543 · 23/11/2021 09:12

@Cream123 the professor said the biopsies act as a scratch, so it doesn't look like that has been any help. I don't really want to explore immunes further, I think it will just take up time and money and be stressful when there is no evidence for it. I guess the bit with the most evidence is the NK cells and mine showed the opposite that would have been expected in my case.

Fertilysis have quite a few tests, so it will be useful to see what the doctor there thinks.

VenusStarr · 23/11/2021 09:22

Thank you @Cream123 I'm just struggling with the fact it stopped at the same point again. It measures the same as my 4th baby - I had a scan at 6+4 last year with that one and always wondered whether his heart was ever beating. That baby was chromosomally normal. It feels like too much of a coincidence.

I keep thinking about the lack of yolk sac and wondering if that's significant. Everything I've looked up says no yolk is an anembryonic pregnancy but we do have an embryo. Just wondering if that might mean there is chromosomal issues for this one. I think that will be easier to cope with in a way.

I'm so sorry @Gardenlady543 ❤️ I know you've done a lot of testing, it might be worth looking at peripheral nk bloods. My uterine ones are normal but my bloods show that in pregnancy they're overactive and my doctor thinks that's the cause of our subfertility and also our losses. You could see if your ivf clinic would prescribe steroids for your next transfer instead of doing more tests as they're not cheap xx

VenusStarr · 23/11/2021 09:24

Sorry @Gardenlady543 we cross posted, I totally get the not wanting to test more. X

Janefx40 · 23/11/2021 10:11

@Gardenlady543 I'm so sorry. You've been on such a long journey and I really hoped this would be your time.

As @Cream123 says now isn't the time to answer any questions or make decisions. You just need some time to recover from this experience.

@VenusStarr this is heartbreaking - I'm so sorry. What immune protocol were you on? X

whatcangowrong · 23/11/2021 10:31

@Gardenlady543 sorry to hear it is still negative. It is still a long way to OTD but I understand why you would be disappointed at this point. ❤️ all I can say is that from personal experience I know that sometimes it takes quite a few tries and so if I were you I would keep exploring things and keep going if you can bear it 😑 whilst you have had a lot of tests over a long period, 4 transfers is not actually out of the realms of normal in terms of what the stats say success is likely to be, particularly if you've had a few things fixed since early failures. I have had 2 pregnancies out of a total of 9 embryos transferred and a further 4 discarded through pgt a. So that's 7 + 4 that didn't make it and 1 that definitely did and another 1 (or less likely 2) that might. Sending strength.

@VenusStarr hope you managed to get some rest last night and are hanging in there

VenusStarr · 23/11/2021 10:35

@Janefx40 I was on hydroxychloroquine, 25mg prednisolone, intralipids before transfer and at 4 weeks (up to 16), aspirin, clexane, 5mg folic acid, cyclogest 800mg and lubion x1. I initially thought seeing a heartbeat meant the immunes had worked but I'm doubting it now as the heart stopped at the same point we've lost other babies.
Had a panic attack this morning, I've got to wean off the prednisolone and still take cyclogest just in case stopping makes it start. Only one more then that's it.

I feel like death. My face is puffy and grey.

Gardenlady543 · 23/11/2021 17:32

Oh I'm sorry @VenusStarr those medications have horrible side effects, I hope you can come off them as soon as possible.

I spoke with the specialist from
Fertilysis, he's really knowledgeable about the microflora which was great. I had so many questions! He’s concerned about the high amount of gardnerella from my biopsy he said that this is not just a misbalance this is an active infection, he’s not surprised the first antibiotic I took after the initial Emma in April (coamoxiclav) didn’t shift it as it’s anaerobic. He said if it is corrected then two things can happen, either it stays normal or I will revert to abnormal flora, if I do this then the best option is to create a window of opportunity before a transfer, so prophylactic antibiotics and vaginal probiotics.

He has some different treatment protocols that I could pursue if I have a third biopsy with 0% lactobacillus, he said either we can talk about oral antibiotics or if needed I can fly over to Greece and they can do hysteroscopy and up to 10 washes of uterine antibiotics, this would only cost around €1000 so not that much considering how much it cost to have the biopsies every time. I would likely do this if a third is abnormal, because I've already had two courses of treatment. He said he sees people like me a lot in the population of infertile people he’s dealing with. I asked him whether I should be thinking about giving up and going on to surrogacy and he said he thinks that it will work. We spoke about whether this has stopped me getting pregnant, he said there is evidence that abnormal microflora affects cellular communication, local environmental factors and how the immune system works locally, garnderella also forms biofilms associated with infertility. Whether there is another cause such as an immune issue also there he doesn’t know.

I've ordered the test kit, I'll need to take a menstrual fluid sample and do a vaginal swab mid cycle. So I will probably get the results either the end of the year or early next year.

bluepixie · 23/11/2021 18:01

Oh @VenusStarr it’s just so incredibly awful all of it. It’s so sad. The meds make it so much worse. And all the questions spinning around ur head. My last mc I was on all the immunes at argc and I still mc - I was beside myself and then found out it was chromosomal I lost it at 9 weeks - I def coped with it better knowing that and it led me to pgs which then worked first time with all the same immunes.

@Gardenlady543 glad u had a productive chat. Sounds very interesting and also sounds like u still have more to give this journey. I hope u can enjoy Xmas and I hope 2022 is going to be ur year with good news x

Janefx40 · 23/11/2021 19:02

@VenusStarr I'm so sorry you are having to cope with so much. It's too much for anyone. I hope you will feel better when you stop the pred. The puffiness will go anyway. There are other things that can be tried with immunes as you know, as @Gardenlady543 says though the evidence isn't good. But then the evidence isn't there for a lot of what we do here so you may feel that it's worth taking the chance.
I'll be thinking of you tomorrow x

@Gardenlady543 that sounds really illuminating. It makes sense that this would be an active infection (even though I'm no medic!). It's promising that there is stuff to try too. Have you taken some hope from the conversation?

Xxx

Gardenlady543 · 23/11/2021 19:39

I'm not sure I got hope @Janefx40 while I asked directly if he thinks I'll be able to fix this and Ivf will work. He answered like the professor did, I feel like they can only say yes, because keeping people motivated is so important. I'm not sure I'll ever get there. At least I can hopefully get the microflora sorted though.

Janefx40 · 23/11/2021 19:55

@Gardenlady543 I guess we can't know if you'll get there but sorting microflora has to be a step in the right direction. For what it's worth, they do sometimes tell you if won't work. We've been told that specifically once (tho the test results they were referring to turned out to be wrong) and we've been told several times that IVF is very unlikely to work for us. Of course they were all different people from who you've seen. My experience of consultants is that they tend not to give false hope x

Gardenlady543 · 23/11/2021 20:02

@Janefx40 the "it won't work" line seems to be most common with embryo issues, with people like me there's so little known, people just say keep going. I guess my specialist resorting to praying isn't the best!

Janefx40 · 23/11/2021 20:07

@Gardenlady543 yes I was thinking that. It's well evidenced that being my age means almost no chance of IVF success and also with my DPs sperm results that showed him to be basically infertile. I guess your situation is a bit more unknown. But I still think it is hopeful that he thinks he can sort the microflora at least xxx

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