Rumples IVF/ICSI thread continued

[lildottie]

Our thread was originally started by Rumples who now has her bfp, as have a few other ladies along the way. Here's hoping the next thread holds a few more bfps!

Thanks so much lil. That means a lot. Yes, you're right, it dragged for me as I counted down every day! But not long now.

I truly hope things work out for you too. It's not fair that you put in so much effort and did everything right. You even have a hugely high AMH of 40 compared to my result of 2.5! So I felt for sure you were in with a great chance and never would have thought you would end up with only two at day 2. Are there things you feel you/the clinic should do differently if you try again or are you at a loss as to why only 2 of 7 survived and just waiting for your appointment to ask questions?

Hi shell yes this is my first ivf so not sure what to expect. We decided to go to czech as the nhs waiting list for my area is around 18 months. At nearly 36 I can't afford to wait that long. We were looking into going private in the UK and paying around £8k for 2 rounds of icsi. I had heard prices were meant to be a lot cheaper abroad so I looked into it. I am now paying £1450 for one round of icsi and just have to buy drugs on top which means we should be able to afford a few goes if we need to. Flights to Czech are very cheap from the UK and accommodation is cheap out there.

The clinics are excellent and have better success rates than the UK. You have the email address of your consultant and can speak to them whenever you want. I have been very impressed so far and have heard nothing but great reviews. A lot of women go out there with hard to treat cases or for donor egg ivf. I think it's good as it's like a mini holiday as well and might help to take our minds off things and make it a little easier. We intend to do lots of sightseeing between collection and transfer

That's a huge price difference lucie! Just shows how much profit the clinics are making from us poor desperate women. Out the back of my IVF clinic are the Dr's cars and a few of them are worth more than my house! When does your cycle start?

Yes I know ivf is way over priced in countries like the UK and Oz. I will be starting stimms on the second day of AF which won't be until around 7th April so I have just over a month to get myself prepared. Going to look into high protein although I eat quite a bit of meat etc anyway. Are there any other tips you can recommend? I'm already on every supplement under the sun!

I am about to embark on my 10th IVF attempt so I feel like a bit of a failure at all this and that I am in no place to give tips or advice on how to succeed!!!! There is one study that shows a diet of > 25% protein increases embryo survival rate, while another study shows vegetarian protein to produce better results - but no way I could get my protein intake ? 25% when I was vegetarian so I started including fish into my daily diet. So who knows.

I too am on a daily dose of several supplements, trying to eat perfect and exercise. Meanwhile my DH is the one with the diagnosed fertility issue and he continues to buy junk food daily at work and groan at me when I hand him tablets. So I hope you have a supportive husband as I think that would really help with the IVF journey.

There are studies that say that meditation or hypnotherapy greatly increases IVF success. Some say even by up to 50%. So I am trying that whenever I watch my husband chow on junk or make a cheesecake as he did today!

Thanks Shell I really hope it's your turn this time around. Would you ever consider donor eggs if not?

just checking in to see how everyone is doing. shell how are things going?

While I am very happy for those that find their happy ending with donor eggs, it is not for me lucie. I have looked into foster care as my plan B but it just made me cry as it is not what I really want.

Lovely to hear from you lildottie, my fellow IVF hardship partner. I am on day 6 of my last IVF cycle. Went for a scan yesterday and only 5 measly follicles growing. Felt heartbroken on the way home. I am hanging on to desperate hope that this scan was only 4 & 1/2 days into my cycle and still time for more to pop up. I have a follow up scan on Tuesday - CD11. It's a long wait til then. After yesterdays scan, I started holding a hot water bottle around my tummy as often as possible in the hope of getting some extra blood flow to the area.

How are you coping lil? Have you had a follow up appointment with your clinic? Or made any decisions on your next step forward? Can't remember if your first IVF was on the NHS and if you get any more funded goes?

shell hot water bottle on your kidneys, as kidneys are linked to uterus in Chinese medicine. that's what my acupuncturist told me to do! I know its easy to say but don't get hung up on numbers. it is a numbers game to some degree but quality is far more important. keeping everything crossed for you. I feel the same about fostering/adoption. its just not what I want. I want to grow my baby, to have scans, to give birth, to bond, to breast feed, to see the resemblance to me and dh as they grow.

for me the waiting continues. its 4wks since my bfp, 3wks since mc started and I'm still waiting for an appointment date. I'll be chasing in 3more weeks as it said appt would be 8-10weeks and letter usually cones through 2weeks before. we inky had one funded go but dh is convinced with his new super sperm that we will get pg on our own in the next few months. I on the other hand am not convinced and have given up. not sure how I feel about another ivf. I'd rather go abroad where its cheaper/higher success rates but dh has said no.

Thanks for the hot water bottle tip lil. At this point, I'll try anything. You are so right about quality over quantity and I have been purposely finding appropriate success stories on the internet from poor responders to remind me of this. Last cycle I only got 3 mature eggs but got 2 top quality embryos to transfer so I am trying to remind myself of that too. But still I can't help but wonder if perhaps these 5 won't grow at a similar rate and I will have even less than 5 mature follicles, or if more will pop up and I can hopefully (please God) get 6-7.

So it sounds like you don't have any definite options moving forward then lil. Yes, abroad does seem so much cheaper. Shows how much profit they make from us desperate women. But if your husband doesn't agree, then that seems like the end of that. How much did your husbands sperm improve? My husbands latest results have all been 0% morphology. But we had been TTC for 8 months prior to his first test that showed 2% morph, and it hadn't happened then. Don't know why it went from 2 to 0 and hasn't budged since. Have you got any specific questions to help you decide what direction to take? I can't imagine they could have too much advice as there really is no set answers in all this.

my main question is why from 7 embryos did we only get 2 by day 2 as it seems to me egg quality could be a problem despite my amh being 40 a year ago. and is embryo quality the most likely reason for mc or are there other tests I could have re mc before we do another ivf. or was it failed implantation. and why is the world so unfair! lol. I'm not ruling anything out tbh, just letting myself be miserable and angry until the appointment and then I hope think I'll find more focus for it again. forget the numbers, I had 11 eggs and only 1 grade 1 embryo by day 2. the other was grade 2 and showing fragmentation. its just dumb luck.

Yes, only having 2 alive at day 2 from 7 that fertilised does seem much lower survival rate than average. If you feel that you will try IVF again at some point, I really recommend taking CoQ10 in the lead up. This is what gives our cells energy and in the case of our egg cells, the energy they need to divide. In the 1st 2-3 days our cells are dividing off their own energy before the sperm and egg genetics kick in, so I really hope/feel like this will help if you find the strength (and finances!) to try again.

I too wonder about embryo quality being the only reason for failed implantation. I have read this study showing that women who take 2mg E2 have a 44% preg rate versus 18% for those who did not. And this study showing a 2.6% miscarriage rate for women who take 4mg estrogen after EC compared to 20% miscarriage for women who take 2mg estrogen. It really does show that there are reasons other than embryo quality for failed implantation and that our estrogen levels need to be just right in order for embryos to implant and stick. I don't even think the Dr's know/care. Last cycle I was 110% sure that my embryo(s) implanted based on pregnant feeling day 24-28 of my cycle and late period, then had symptoms of sudden estrogen drop (hot flashes) followed by my period. I showed my Dr these studies but she had no idea about E2 during the luteal phase and I plan to do it this cycle based on my own research.

I know you are not in the place now to be researching and preparing for another IVF, but just thought I'd share in case this is any help to you in the future. I hope the appointment helps you find new hope but in the meantime, you deserve to allow yourself to feel miserable. I might be joining you in the miserable camp if my scan on Tuesday doesn't show any more follicles!

that's interesting shell, I was on 2mg oestrodol tablets 3 times a day from about a week before ec right up until the mc started. I will read those studies and mention them at follow up.
as for you, try to stay positive

That's interesting that you took them from a week before EC lil. These studies only suggest taking them after EC. Was that because you had a thin lining or is that just standard protocol at your clinic? My Dr doesn't know about estrogen so I am doing this based on my own research but has just said I can try it if I want to, so I am interested to learn whatever you know about taking estrogen and the reason your clinic prescribed them.

yes it was thin lining at second scan shell. by third scan lining was where it needed to be. I was told to start the protein shakes at the same time.

Okay, so the oestradol tablets before EC was thin lining. But were you given any specific reason why you need to continue it after EC. Was that for a specific condition you had or is that standard protocol at your clinic? And did you start them the day of transfer? Sorry for all the questions. The fact that my Dr knows nothing about this and that I have to learn about it myself to give my last IVF it's best chance is making me want to make sure I get it 100% right. I am planning to do 2mg tablets 2 times day - not 3 like you - as per that second study I gave the link for which showed it gave the highest preg rate and lowest miscarriage rate.

Out of curiosity, would you say your diet in the lead up to IVF was high protein or low carb? I thought you had started the protein shakes well before, but you only started them during stimming. Statistically, that is SUPPOSED to improve embryo survival rate. Your clinic does sound very thorough. At least they knew about oestradol tablets post EC. My Dr knows nothing about it. And your clinic also know about the protein diet. At least they seem up with the latest studies and I hope they provide some insight and motivation at your follow up appointment. And if they can answer why life isn't fair - tell me the answer to that too!

lol, I'll make sure I ask that one shell!!
I don't know why I continued the oalestrodol tbh. I would have stayed on it until 12wks pg if I hadn't mc, as well as progesterone and shakes. I was doing high protein slow carb, aiming for the 25% protein 40% carb ratio from the study I think we discussed a while back. they said something about the shakes being because the follicles can leak protein so it needs to be replaced, I seem to recall it being to do with size of follicles or overstimulation (not that I overstimmed but I had 20 follicles). I know in fet they prescribe 4x 2mg as that was the prescription I had to give my gp so I would say its not standard protocol as they had to give me a fet prescription. don't apologise for asking questions, ask away! x

So you are not sure why you took the oestradiol post EC then lil? Anyway, maybe I should stop asking questions. I am on day 10 today and up til now have felt pretty confident in my decision to take 2mg oestradiol twice daily post EC. I don't want to get conflicting info and start stressing myself out. But I do want to make sure this last IVF has no regrets. Screw it, I don't just want no regrets. I want my long overdue BFP.

Yes, that's right, you too had read the same study and were working out our carb/protein percentages. Forgetting who said what on this thread. It doesn't seem logical then that this study shows it increases embryos that make it to blast to 50%, while you only had 2 going at day 2. I really hope you get an answer to that at your follow up appointment to help give you hope for the future.

It's 7.50pm here. Scan is at 10am tomorrow. Been fine so far but feeling quite nervous now. Still only 5 follicles at my scan tomorrow will feel like the start of watching this last cycle fail and me having to somehow accept this will never happen which I just don't want to do!

Hey guys, is it ok if I come back?

Just been to the hospital to confirm miscarriage, little embryo stopped growing at 6w 3d (exactly 2 weeks ago). Last week we saw the flicker of a very weak heartbeat, but today they confirmed that the baby had died. I'm actually ok with it all, I feel like I'm armed with a lot of information and questions, the next cycle will be better (I accidentally typo'd cycle as suckle, probably should have left it because this all SUCKS!).

Quick recap if anyone's interested - first ICSI cycle due to MF infertility (anti-sperm antibodies), long protocol responded well to stimms with a whopping 19 eggs collected, and 14 of them fertilised. Sadly only 2 survived to blast by day 5, and although I'd said to the clinic I'd like to discuss whether to put 1 or 2 back depending on quality, when I arrived for ET, the embryologist had already frozen 1 embie, so I had the other put back. Due to a really curved cervix this was a little bit more difficult than it should have been but luckily both I and the doctors were prepared as they do a mock transfer as a matter of course at my clinic so discovered all the problems before we had the embryo waiting there. I got a "nice strong" BFP at 11dp5dt and developed pregnancy symptoms (I even have a small bump.). Haven't bled or hurt at all, so the tiny embryo with barely a heatrbeat was a complete shock. My clinic only do 2 weeks of progesterone gels, so next time (with our one frostie) I'm going to push for more progesterone. I don't really know what else to ask for at this stage. I'm really annoyed at my mum at the moment, because after speaking to her she confessed that miscarriage runs in the family - 4 generations!! I wish I had known this bit of information sooner, I feel the clinic might have altered my course of treatment based on this.

I'm going to catch up with where I left off on this thread now, I hope at least someone has had happy news/progress!

oh toes Im so sorry. my bfp was a mc at 4 +5 (based on almost -ve frer after string positives from 8dp2dt) so I can relate. how frustrating to only find out about mc in family now! my clinic had prescribed me progesterone until 12wks pg so there are some who do do it. on the plus side you have a frosty so try to keep focussed on that. you will hurt and cry even when you think you're OK, and we're here if you need to vent/chat.

shell I would say the fact I was kept on it is a good indicator to support your decision to take it. I have to say up until the mc my clinic were great, and seemed very knowledgeable and thorough. good luck for the scan tomorrow. will be thinking off you x

Oh Toes, of course you absolutely very welcome to come back and chat/rant as you need to. You're sounding very practical and moving straight on to plan B. Thanks for the recap. There was so much going on here at one point I lost track. Now everyone seems to have left with their BFP's and it's just me and lil ranting away how life isn't fair. I didn't realise miscarriage is a hereditary thing?

My quick recap is that I am undergoing my 10th IVF cycle. This is the last cycle I can afford so I really feel the pressure. Unlike you Toes, I am a poor responder. My first IVF in 2013 I produced two measly follicles. I started supplements including DHEA and now my day 2 IVF scans show 15-19 follicles of which 6-7 usually grow on to maturity. I stopped the DHEA after my last IVF cycle in Nov 2014 on my Dr's suggestion. But now this cycle I only started with a pathetic 5 follicles instead of the usual 15-19. I went for a follow up scan today / CD11 and of the 5, only 3 of them are growing. One is at 18 and two at 13.

However, I am about to turn 38 in July and feeling like time is fast running out. I feel like I don't have time to cancel this cycle, re-start DHEA and wait 3 months for it to take effect. So I am considering pushing forward with a measly 3 eggs. I just can't bear the pain any more and want to try with these 3 eggs with a small glimmer of hope of a BFP in two weeks rather than the alternative of cancelling and my dream becoming less of a reality as I continue to age.

Sorry for the long long rant. Very stressed at the moment about all this!

lil, I agree that your clinic were very knowledgable. I hope this continues and they can provide answers at your follow up appointment. Any word yet on when this is?

Toes, what are your next steps? Can't recall if you were NHS funded meaning you have to wait weeks/months for a follow up appt?

shell I think if you cancelled the cycle you'd just be wondering if one of those 3 was the one that was meant to be. and I agree that the time thing is a reason not to. how r u feeling?

and toes hope ur OK

The Dr recommended cancelling today as he thought I could do better based on my previous cycles. But I said I would push on regardless. I happened to stumble across a study today showing that DHEA increases the number of follicles and the embryo quality. I really regret stopping it now. I have seen a definite drop in follicle numbers this cycle and so if that part of the study holds true in my case, it makes sense my embryo quality has dropped as per the study as well! So I have a feeling of dread about this cycle and not sure why I am going ahead against what this study says and against the Dr's advice. I think it's just sheer desperation! I just took my trigger. I hope at least all of my 3 measly eggs are mature. Perhaps only 2 will be mature... then perhaps only 1 will fertilise... it's really looking quite bleak. But if I cancel then I have 0 hope so here goes.

your decision is just that shell, yours. its what is right for you. fx for 3 good eggs xx

Thanks lil. Looking forward to this time tomorrow when I will be unconscious and won't have to think about this for half an hour!