Assisted conception after recurrent miscarriage

[duggs1976]

Hey super ovulators and those struggling with infertility after miscarriage this is where we are! Come on over ...

ari remember lots of things influence the colour of the line. So am holding out hope.

mel hope all is going ok in greece.

sue let us know how you respond to the drugs. Never thought a couple of years ago I would be writing that sentence!

duggs when is the testing date, hand holding in the 2ww (if you can last 2weeks, I would probably have started testing by now).

Waves to everyone I have missed

Could everyone make a list of what treatment they're having and where? Not knowing much about IVF, I can't really keep track. It's all way over my head!

Ari you are remarkably strong and very kind for all your info.

Well I have been juicing and being healthy and relaxed and got a huge cold sore yesterday whichncan be an early pg sign for me ESP as I am only working part time and not stressed or rundown At all.

So I did a first repines again at paddington station loo...( how many have I done in those bloody toilets). Very very faint line. So v excited.
Showed DH who couldn't see anything much.
Went to sleep woke up 1am did another, still a faint line.
Did a 3rd this morning and a faint line which DH could see.
HOWEVER- totally forgot I did a bloody ovitrelle injection last Monday 20th..lower dose 250mg or 6,500ul dose. They say it takes approx 1 day to metabolise 1000mg so in theory should be gone by Monday.

Damn wish I had remembered and not bothered to test until tomorrow or something? Confused now.
Will have to see if line gets darker tomorrow.
FFSake.

Ok brown I will kick off treatment list :

Duggs - gonal f & timed intercourse may,June, July - IVF august ( hopefully)

Thanks ladies, appreciate the good wishes! Unfortunately for me I always use FRER to test and the only two pregnancies that have ever got further than 5 weeks had really strong lines at 12dpo. I'd be the equivalent of 17dpo yesterday. With 5-day blasts put back, they should implant within 3-5 days; my test date was 12 days after transfer, so they should have been producing lots of hCG if even only one of them had implanted properly.

I do know that lots of things can influence how strong a line is, but I pretty much do the same thing every time I do these tests, so it should be a 'level playing field' as it were every time (ie, always FMU, always around 7am, last wee (sorry!) the night before is almost always around 11pm, I only ever have two drinks between 8pm and 11pm so there would be much the same level of liquid in my body, etc etc).

sue No a multiple pregnancy would have much higher hCG, so would be a stronger line. And these 'slow growers' that you hear about - do they ever come out as healthy babies, at the end of the day? I've done lots of reading around on faint lines/slow growers in the last 2.5 years, and I have rarely ever seen a positive outcome. There are some, but they are extremely few and far between - most of them end up as miscarriages.

buzzy OTD with Serum is always 12 days after egg transfer, where the first day after ET is counted as day 1. Yesterday was my 12 days past ET, hence why I tested.

I am trying to hold out hope, but when you're doing hCG 'rescue' shots to try to boost your own natural levels of hCG so early in a pregnancy, there isn't much hope to be honest that all is progressing as it should. I'll keep going with the meds and hope hope hope - but I have never had a good outcome on an FRER faint line personally.

sue Emotional turmoil is absolutely the right term, if I stopped doing things I would be in pieces, but to be honest if I can help someone else then I would rather do that. It doesn't help my struggling embie if I fall apart right now, that may come later :)

I'd second those pens for injections - I do my G-CSF injections from one of those (it's actually marked as a Puregon pen, funnily enough) and it makes life so much easier! I also now cheat and transfer the clexane medication into a new syringe that I can attach a much finer needle to, so it hurts a whole lot less injecting now. I'm still bruising like heck from the clexane itself, but at least it doesn't hurt as much to get the needle in now!

Best of luck for the scan this afternoon sue, let us know how you get on!

lemon How are you feeling, are you getting uncomfortable yet? :)

duggs You too - how are you doing, any signs of anything?? This 2WW is rubbish!

choccy If you're lurking, any sign of that smilie face yet?

brown I confess, the different protocols and ideas around IVF confuse me too. I've just about got the hang of my own, but OE cycles (and other clinics' protocols) are largely a mystery to me! :)

/waves to all, hope you're all doing great and best of luck mel for your trip!

Oooh duggs, we cross-posted. Can I be cautiously optimistic, I know you may still have ovitrelle in your system but it may not be that. I'm going for the latter! It's suck a head-feck, all of this. Keep testing, and fingers crossed that line just gets stronger!!!

lol to your Paddington station loo testing ... truthfully I'm actually sick of POASing, and in some ways it's a relief I can't do that now because of the hCG shots, I would only mental out on how strong the line is (or isn't, in my case!).

Don't think so ari Unless i implanted etc all before 6dpo!! unlikely.

ari did penny suggest a plan if this DE attempt didnt work out? do you think you could face any thing else if this pregnancy doesn't progress well for you?

Ari I really feel for you as have been there with the very feint line waiting to see what happens! Maybe it is just that you have low level of hcg which happens to done people and it will soon pick up. Hang in there and you know where we are if you need a moan. I have my fingers crossed for you.

Mel good luck in Athens and hope you get some answers.

Good luck with your scan Sue and hope you have lots of nice follies.

I did the first of my second round of humira shots on Sunday and promptly came down with a mild cold and blocked sinuses! Just waiting to hear back from Care for appointment and off to Spain on Sunday.

Waves to everyone else.

Hmmm Ok, you have a point duggs - but stranger things have happened ;)

There is no plan after this duggs - we have said right from the start that this has to be our last attempt. It's cost so much now, with the drugs I'm taking, the hysteroscopy, etc - we must be close to £8K by now - and my lovely mother has given us a lot of that. There just isn't any way we could afford another cycle, and we already know that a natural pregnancy just isn't possible, so if this fails we're through, unfortunately. There can be no plan B. :( If the money were there I'd do another DE cycle - but it isn't and can't be, we've spent so much over the past 3 years on trying to have a baby with testing, drugs, scans, etc, that we have virtually no savings and a loan is out of the question.

Basically duggs, if this fails, we're finished.

Thanks pebbles ... wonder if the cold and sinus problems are because your NK cells have been royally squashed by the humira?! Well, it's a thought :)

Enjoy your holiday, and hopefully your appt with Care will be shortly after you return all relaxed and refreshed! :)

Seem to have mussed a page before posting! Hang in there Ari and try not to think to far ahead.
I am hoping that indeed the humira is controlling those nk's!

Duggs fingers crossed for you as we'll that it isn't ovitrelle!

Brown I am currently waiting for an appointment at Care and if we like them will have ivf there..

Ari still holding out hope for you. Without a shadow of doubt you are doing everything you can to get one of those embies to stick. You are amazing. Glad to hear of your positive experience at INS. I think it was just my fear of the whole ivig thing combined with the misinformation from the ZW nurse that got me so worked up!

Duggs praying your line is still there when the ovitrelle gets out of your system.

Mel thinking of you in Athens armed with all Ari's top tips!

Sue hope your scan goes well and the drugs are doing their job. Will be interesting to see how we compare as I think we are a similar age and our amh levels were both fairly pants! (hope I've got that right) I have been for down reg scan today and start stim drugs tom.

Pebbles enjoy yourself in Spain, good to have a ttc break but with the next step lined up when you get back.

Brown being thick and can't work out how to add to Duggs' list. We are having OE ivf at Zita West.

Waves to Buzzy how are you getting on? And lemon and anyone else I've missed.

ari fingers and toes crossed for you, its hard when you know this is you last chance,

mel good luck with your trip to Athens

sue I was advised to up my cyclogest but I am ordering some Agolutan from Brno as its very cheap there. I have a scan on Friday but will only 5w4d, how did your scan go

pebbles have a great holiday

bellyd other than the stress with getting my drugs and Shehata being difficult, I am keeping it together, I swing from happiness to deep sorrow some days, thanks for asking

duggs sounds promising, I would say that the trigger shot should be out of your system is it was last Monday :)

Ladies I'm reading a very interesting book at the moment called " how to get

Opps " how to get pregnant" by dr xiao ping zhai.
You may well know it as she has been in the times @ guardian hailed as older woman's fertility guru and has clinic in london.
Anyway her book is a fascinating read. Gives some sound background and explanations around traditional eastern (Chinese) medicine and how it compliments western techniques etc. Etc. Nothing new immediately thought as have been having acupuncture on and off for a few years now during this hideous journey. However, it really explains some theories goes through some case studies and gives a sound picture of the human body and ultimately what we r all trying to achieve.
Her clinic isn't cheap, however her book is £3 from amazon for kindle or something like that. I recommend it. Most of her patients are over 40 and had several failed IVF rounds. Nk cells are mentioned but what I though most interesting were the insights into how our delicately balanced bodies can become so out of wack and unsurprisingly when going through treatment that we have been through.
Just thought I'd share. Am still reading it.
Opened freer box to test to see if this trigger line is out of my system yet but only 1 in box so no test this am. Will have to venture out later. Have awful cold sore(s) for some reason as have been juicing etc and look like elephant man.? Wtf. Makes we want to go back to excessive drinking and late nights...at least there was a reason for looking and feeling so shite then.

Ari. Have you spoken to penny ?

I couldn't agree more on that duggs, our bodies are such a delicate balance of hormones, chemicals, etc, it's no surprise that introducing anything else could upset the balance, let alone these hard-hitting drugs etc that we have to take during treatment.

Interestingly my acupuncturist at my session on Tuesday said my body has never been stronger, fabulous pulses, great energy, etc etc. Pity none of this has any effect on getting these embies to stick and grow though!

duggs Are you prone to cold sores, or is this a new thing for you? Funny you mention excessive drinking and late nights - I read something a while ago that said poor nutrition etc is bad for your immune system, so perhaps that's why those who eat rubbish, smoke and drink often have several children? Their immune system can't fight back! Perhaps that's what we should all be doing - instead of being ultra healthy, careful with our diet, taking all the right supplements, we should all be eating McDonalds and drinking like fish! :)

I haven't spoken to Penny, no duggs - for what, did you mean?

I have a b-hCG test this morning and then another Monday, but I'm really not hopeful. Bbs which have been hurting like hell until last night now barely hurt at all. Although I know that may mean nothing at all given that my body isn't producing progesterone/oestrogen of its own (as I didn't ovulate due to this being a donor cycle), I'm still taking all the same oestrogen & progesterone supplements as I was so levels should be maintained. Every other time I've miscarried this same thing has happened - bbs have suddenly stopped hurting. shrug May mean nothing in and of itself, but it would take a miracle now I think for this to be viable. Not meaning to be overly negative, just realistic.

Ahh! Was trigger shot. FRER White as a sheet today still was ridiculously early what possessed me?

Ari yes that's what I meant about penny and call- re beta test. You r probably there now honey. Not sure what will be said but sounds like you have prepped yourself for bad news. Doesn't make it any easier though.

Thinking of you.

Sue any news on your follies?
Pebbles enjoy Spain.
Choccy - r u in 2ww?

Oh bugger duggs ... still, it's still early isn't it? Those crappy shots, they just mess with your head!

Yep, just had the blood taken, should know in an hour or so, but I know pretty much how it's going to go.

sue - have you had your scan yet?

Ari and duggs just want to give you a big hug. duggs what dpo are you? Is it still too early to get a BFP if one is there. Ari am still hoping for you but understand that by now we all know what our bodies feel like at different stages of pregnancy and miscarriage. Duggs sounds an interesting book. It makes sense that our bodies are in balance and sometimes what we do treatment wise can knock them out of balance.

Well, got the results in and as expected they're cr@p. I'm 14dp5dt today, and had 1500iu pregnyl jab just over 48 hours before my test. Apparently after 48 hours this raises hCG in your body by 25 - 40 iu/L.

My hCG was 54.6 iu/L and progesterone 14.31 nmol/L. Both of which are utterly rubbish. I'm on 2 x 400mg cyclogest a day too, so something isn't working right.

So ... I haven't bothered to take the second 'rescue' shot yet, but have emailed the results to Penny asking her if it's even worth it. If she's honest with me I'm expecting her to say No.

Feck. Anyone any idea where I can rob a bank for another £5K?

Ari, really sorry to hear that. Even though I know you prepare yourself for this eventuality, the reality of it is so stark. What should both of those hormone levels be if it had worked? The hCG shows that implantation has occurred at some point presumably?
I am feeling crap too today. 10dpo and a gleaming white line. I think some part of me felt that my infertility is now cured and I would instantly get pregnant. Also very worried about my DS who has had swollen glands for several months now. The doctors don't seem to be able to give me a definitive answer but just seem to watch and wait. What a mistake it was to Google 'lymphoma'! I think I'm transferring all my angst from the miscarriage on to him, as if there's a giant conspiracy of fate to take my every last child.

And Duggs, sorry to hear it was the shot; but there's time yet, isn't there? What day are you on now?

Ari sorry to see that the results were not what was hoped for. I really thought that one of them would stick. I am gutted for you. I hope penny is able to get back with an answer for you. What ever I type does not seem adequate, but know that we are here for you.

brown are they arranging for your son to see a paeditrican if the glands are not settling?

Ok ari. So just pretending in fantasy world money was plentiful do you know what you would do next?

Because I know it is not the same but when I thought chromosomes were my issue and I spent £8k on IVF with CGH and 2 embies showed positiven pg test then HCG 56 and then 18 I was onto adoption.

Then slowly I haven tried again.

Just interested in the process of elimination.
You've tried nk cell treatment,
You've now tried 24 yr olds proven eggs.
Hypothetically you know it isn't the eggs, it isn't the nk cells as you have delt with them.. So could u explain the DQ match with your partner so we can understand a little better ?

Would a surrogate taking you your and Mans embryo have same outcome because of DQ match?

Would you be able to carry a donor embryo for example?

Would a surrogate be able to carry your partners sperm and egg donor embryo?

I know you don't want the above just trying to understand your situation a bit better I think?

Hope you don't mind? X

Thanks ladies, and brown hoping that 10dpo is just too early? I've never shown a positive before 12dpo, crossing fingers that it's the case for you too. I would also suggest perhaps taking your son to a paediatrician - I presume he's had blood tests in case of glandular fever or something?

duggs No I don't mind at all. If money were no object I would go for another donor egg cycle but this time perhaps do what Penny originally suggested and do the "half and half" donor sperm & OH's sperm. So we would never know if a baby was born whether it was genetically his or not. And this time I'd have the prontogest progesterone jabs rather than cyclogest, no matter how much they hurt, as I'm concerned my low level of progesterone may well be why the embryos didn't implant properly. Or maybe it was my NK cells killed them off, I don't know.

I wouldn't say it's not the NK cells - my body will still see anything fertilised with OH's sperm as too close to me and do its best to kill it off. It may be that my NK cells are just too damn strong. Penny did always say she was still very concerned about that happening.

A surrogate would not have a problem carrying either my own embryo fertilised with OH's sperm or a donor egg fertilised with OH's sperm as the problem is my body's DNA and OH's being too close, not that of my eggs. As long as the embryo DNA is different enough to the host carrying it there's no problem.

I should theoretically be able to carry a donor embryo to term as long as it's not fertilised with OH's sperm as my body will not see it as a close DNA match to me.

Bearing in mind that the DQ alpha match is unlikely to be the sole cause of my high NK cells, although I believe it to be the killing cause, because I do also have psoriasis and eczema, along with aching joints which started immediately after I had DD (and my psoriasis got twice as bad), which means that DD triggered some sort of NK rise. I think that part of my high NK cells would be controlled by the ILs and pred, as my psoriasis disappears totally on 10mg pred.

The thing with the DQ alpha match is that no matter what the DNA of the egg, it's the DNA of the fertilising sperm apparently that is the bit your own body looks at most when it's trying to determine whether this object is a part of its own body or something else. Unfortunately because OH's DQ alpha DNA marker is exactly the same as mine, my body will almost always see it as "not different" enough to itself and will not treat it as a pregnancy, but a part of me that has gone wrong. And will do all it can to kill it off.

Now, whether there were other things here - low progesterone, perhaps lining was an issue after all? - that have affected it, I don't know.

I'm wavering between thinking right, come on, that's it, give it up and accept that there are no more children in your future, and thinking is there any way I can manage to save £5K by, say, September or October and try again with the half-half donor/OH sperm - although I don't know that OH would agree to this anyway, I didn't even broach it with him before. My need to have a baby is way beyond his, I think he's happy with our little family as it is. And I know for a fact he feels he's too old for a baby at 51, so I'd have that battle on my hands. Surrogacy is never going to be an option for me, I would never feel like it's my own child if I don't carry it.

Hope that's explained it all, and I haven't bored you all to tears. And thank you a lot for your support, it means a lot.

I don't believe this, she's crazy. I'd just sent a long follow-up email to Penny (after sending her my results this morning) saying I am expecting her to say this isn't viable and stop all meds and telling her it's ok, she can say it, and she replied (as I was hitting Send) that we should carry on with the second and third rescue shot!

I kid you not. She's nuts. This isn't viable.