Mulitcultural England - good old Boris...

[Janh]

From the Telegraph yesterday:

shamed - I was joking of course !! I don't think any one has ever been accused of being a traitor on the grounds of religion.

The tone of idiots like Boris always seems to suggest that if you are not willing to die in the name of the Queen, you are disloyal to this country and should therefore be booted out back to wherever yoy came from presumably ? I have a friend from the Middle East who always got snide remarks from his colleagues at work in London because he did not support England in the World Cup. I also know that all my Pakisatni friends here support the Pakistan cricket team rather than the England team So, perhaps that is a sure sign of being a traitor too ?

It is this whole debate about what or whom an immigrant should be loyal to that really, really annoys me. And when it's put is such simplistic, "Scotch eggs" terms as Boris, all I can do is shake my head and laugh out loud at the same time !!

Boris then even more stupidly talks abou the Khans and Alis who died for Britain in WW I and WW II. Well as someone else here has pointed out, India, Pakistan and Bangladesh (all one country before 1947) did not obtain independence until 1947, and then only due to the efforts of a tiny lawyer called "Ghandi" so perhaps those Khans and Alis had NO CHOICE other than fight on Britains' side ? I am not suggesting that India would have supported Hilter, but it was a colony at the time and did not make it's own foreign policy choices. Makes a difference, eh ??

Any way, I have gone off the point a bit.

Sorry - have just realised that my first statement is historically inaccurate. Throughout Britains's history people have been accused of being traitors and their head chopped off on the basis of their religion.

I was referring to the 21st century !!

Yes, monkeytrousers - of course the statute I am referring to does not mean that people will get rounded up as traitors and hanged these days. There are many bits and pieces still left on the statute book that Parliament has not sorted out yet, some extremely funny ones !!

Blair has pulled off the ultimate sleight of hand/distraction trick. Invade a country against the wishes of the majority and then, when it all inevitably goes pear-shaped, try to silence critics by accusing them of going over 'old ground.' He then asks us to focus only on what 'we' are going to do about a situation that 'he' took us into against our will.

It's post-modernism gone mad!

Re the "Khans and Alis", this BBC page says

My italics.

Janh - did they volunteer because they wanted to defeat Hitler or because they were in love with the Queen ? I bet it was the former.

Many Brits and Americans fought as VOLUNTEERS in the Spanish Civil War in the 1930's. Not because they loved Spain, but because they wanted to defeat Fascism.

Sorry, meant "King", not "Queen" in my last post !!

Janh - just to put your BBC article into perspective, there was a "Free India Movement" during WW II, led by an Indian whose name I forget, sorry !!

He actively and successfully recruited Indian POW's to fight for Hitler.

So Indian volunteers fought on both sides. Those who wanted Britain out of India, joined Hitler's forces.

PS - I think you have got the wrong end of the stick, I am not saying that you should not point an accusing finger but that if a debate is to go any further we should stop going round in circles esp as we (mumnetters, thank you monkey) agree! I just don't want to focus on the negatives all the time that is all. I don't want to hate anymore, I want to HOPE for a better future and a solution, is that so wrong? Wouild it be so bad if WE could come up with one?

To me it seems you like to be right, that is fine with me, you carry on being right and pointing out the obvious and thinking the worst. I will carry on being optimistic. And of course the death of 30-40 innocent people is not ok by me, whatever makes you think that it is, is it ever ok in your eyes?

I have made some points and perhaps you think my points are not valid or smart enough or that I don't understand the word 'civil war'? That is up to you. I think I am going to instead write to my local MP and hope he does not want to patronise me!!! One can only hope. Hope everyone including PS has had a lovely weekend.

yingers - I am not here to patronise any one or be "right" all the time. I know that most MN posters are sensible, intellignet people.

However, the Boris article makes me really annoyed. The fact that one or two people actually believe what he says makes me really annoyed.

All I was hoping to do was to put matters into historical perspective. I can be an annoying arse when it comes to debating politics (sorry, it's genetic, many of my family and relatives are the same !), but it's only because I get fed up of the ignorant, media image of immigrants in this country and I am particulary talking about the dangerous rise of Islamophobia.

If someone comes up with the image of hoards of Indians fighting for Britain during WWII, I think it is only in the interest of everyone else who may not be familiar with the history of that period to point out that there is another side to the story.

Any way, I was only hoping to make a contribution to an interesting debate .

Thanks Janh - it is a very good threat !!

yingers - good for you for writing to your MP. Every one should do what they believe in.

I am a member of Amnesty International and will be going back to university once baby is a bit older to specialise as a Human Rights Lawyer. So I hope I am not just all talk and no trousers !!

Have you signed our petition Peachskin? Anyone else too - we'd love your support. Ask your friends too! pass it on!

PS - I can also be an annoying arse & like you am an Amnesty member. Bizarrely, a very good friend of mine is Human Rights lawyer, she works all the hours god sends & I believe mades a real difference so good luck for that in the future.

Monkey - will sign petition now although I may have already, my memory is so clogged by preg hormones these days!

In regards to writing to your MP, good to do but honestly don't expect too much. Once I wrote to him about the child tax credit system and was told that he had never heard of there being any problems with it. However, saying that have a new MP so am hoping for a little more action.

meant makes

monkeytrousers - I will sign your petition later today when baby is having a nap !

Janh - I meant "thread" not "threat", sorry ! This is a very good THREAD !!

Glad you approve, peachskin

Actually have just noticed that as well as the "England instead of Britain" sin I spelt multicultural wrong

(Incidentally the 1m hordes were in WWI only - 2.5m Indian soldiers fought in WWII. There are some revealing quotes in that BBC piece, from a Sikh -

So, yes, they fought for "King and Emperor" but "someone else's", and I infer from "martial traditions" that they did it mostly because it needed to be done. Pretty honourable in my book - regardless of whether they were Indian or Pakistani, volunteer or conscript, they were brave men, like all of them.)

And I still enjoy reading Boris - he may be a buffoon and a serial Spectator shagger but he makes me laugh

yingers - thanks for the best wishes - hope to meet on another thread !

Janh - of course one of the wonderful things about living in Britain is that generally people can talk about their political views without getting arrested and shot. Indeed, that is one of the things which makes me a happy Brit !!

You are entitled to your opinion on Boris. He is a controversial figure, so hope you don't mind those of us who think his opinions on multiculturalism in Britain belong in the gutter of trashy journalism !

Just to clarify something that may have made it sound that I was downgrading any man or woman who fought in WWII. The fight against Hitler was a just cause and if ever there was a "Just WAr", it was the war to deafeat Fascism. Any one who has a relative or friend who fought in that war, no matter what their ethnic origion, should be very proud indeed.

As I said in an earlier post, and as Chandra pointed out, history can be misinterpreted and misrepresented to suit one's own political bias.

When boris talked about the Khan's and Ali's who fought in WWII, he omitted to mention those Indians who fought against Britain and opposed the British colonisation of the Subcontinent. That is a very serious omission of fact.

I hope that I did not offend anyone who lost a loved-one in WWII, I was just trying to make the debate more balanced .

Hope to meet you all on another thread !

He was talking about WWI though, ps - nearly 100 years ago - how many British people would have known that over 1,000,000 Indian soldiers fought then? Not a lot I think! Most of them fought against Turks in Mesopotamia but many in Europe too.

Again from the BBC link:

Please excuse me for resurrecting a dead thread but I made an interesting discovery today.

I am currently working with (among others) a black guy from London, parents from Nigeria originally, who converted to Islam in London 4 years ago. He used to go to mosque regularly, and in London the prayers were in Arabic (as stated here already) and the sermon in English - presumably because the geographic spread of London Muslims meant that they need a common language (and most of them aren't going to speak Arabic, are they?).

However he has now moved up here to Accrington and has had to stop going to mosque here, because nothing is done in English, so he doesn't understand any of it. Presumably the same will apply in any of those towns and cities which have a large Muslim community speaking the same language, like Leeds. So maybe Boris wasn't talking total crap? (Although I do agree that the Scotch egg was a symbol too far.)

Missed this-think i was fighting with peachskin and peacedove on another thread at the time.
I knew this to be thecase,Jan,from the Muslims I know.
And I love the Torygraph and Boris despite the fact that I am a fierce Welsh nationalist!In his bumbling floopy fringed nice-but-dim way,he was spot on.

Scotch egg thing passed me by though-what was that??

It's in the link I posted at the start, moondog:

I read it in RL when it came out JanH.
PS?? Towering intellect??? Get outta here!!!!!
She's full to bursting with her own importance,and her Top Human Rights Activist status.

Pah!!!!!!

..and that particular paragraph was very silly indeed (150% floppy fringed talk) but the gist of it was accurate.

Oh, I know!

It was this