Mulitcultural England - good old Boris...

[Janh]

From the Telegraph yesterday:

"Even if I am British, I don't follow the values of the UK. I follow the Islamic values. I have no allegiance to the British Queen whatsoever, or to British society."

I don't mind that they follow islamic values because there's an infinite numbers of ways to follow them without becoming a terrorist; about not having alliagance with the queen, as somebody has said many people don't have them and there's no problem with that, that's just, to say it someway a way a matter of political prefference. Though talking about not having any sort of allegiance to British society... that's were I find the big problem. Though I also believe that if you live in a country you are unlikely not to form any allegiances with it, just by agreeing to be part of its activities, or even by the simple act of loving the rest of your British family (muslim or not) you already have an allegiance, so this last phrase seems like a expression of somebody who doesn't even know what's he is talking about.

Peachskin from my own personal experience left wing do gooders for want of a better phrase seem intent on eradicating any vestiage of British history - The histiory of the British Isles is far more than collonialism and slavery. I have to admit I am ashamed of those Brits who go abroad only to recreate what they have left

The point I am trying to make is that immigrants unless they are fleeing abuse can choose teh country they go to,if they choose Britain then it demonstrates either they think it is a soft touch or they recognise something in British culture they want to be a part of. Hopefully it is the latter

Also if a country is good enough for you to live in you should show some form of loyalty to that country just by virtue of youliving there

I don't understand how people can choose to come live here/stay living here and then decide that they have no obligation to have any loyalty to this country's people or institutions. That is just weird.
Speaking as an immigrant myself.

sistermoon - why is there a need to be patriotic ? My country (Britain) has invaded another country in contravention of International Law.

The invasion has resulted in the deaths of approx. 100,000 Iraqis, many of them women and children. Why should I take pride in Queen and Country ? Perhaps Britains can finally open their eyes and realise that Mr Blair and his Govt. are as much to blame for the increase in world-wide terrorism as Mr Bin Laden.

Those of us who have a knowledge and understanding of the Middle East were fully aware that invading Iraq would create MORE terrorists, not fewer as claimed by Bush-Blair, et al.

Boris can bang on as much as he wants about teaching immigrants English, but how are you going to make me, a Brit, more patriotic and in love with the Queen ? Never !!

you don't have to love this country to live here, but why stay here if you have no respect for this country or its institutions? Especially if you have cultural/family roots in another part of the world?

Talking about what we are thought in school and the importance of teaching about other cultures. Every country interprets history according to their values and beliefs.

In my country, for instance, we are told that more than 80% of the native population died as a consequence of illnesses introduced by the invaders, we are also told that most of the original cultural/religious heritage was destroyed to establish a christian faith (and we all now that under most colonial churches lies a temple from the original culture). Colonisation was a horrid process that included salvage acts like feeding the original population to the Spanish army's dogs.

On the other hand, Spanish people are taught that they accomplished the great task of establishing Christianism in America and as a result we stopped -thankfully- being a bunch of underdressed salvages.

You can see both sides of the coin if you have the oportunity of being in contact with both cultures but if you don't, the information will be, undoubtedly, at least a bit biased.

Brits abroad! Hum - yes they hould involve themselves more in the culture of the country, to which they have decided to move. But whose responsibility is it that they do? In my mind it is the responsibilty of the country they move to to say what they expect from the people who live there.

It is okay to have expectations of people who share your community, and yes I think a certain willingness to foster a feeling of pride in the UK and yourself as a member of it is a good starting point. However what is it to be British? I can't think that swearing your devotion to the queen is a smashing idea (as much as I love her )

As for everybody speaking in English - well, yes I do think we should be encouraging people to learn the local language be it English/Welsh etc but not at the expense of their own - as an addition.

I am also fiercely against the reduction of religious education in schools - surely it is a current lack of understanding about other religions and cultures which leads to racisim, which in turn can also lead to extreemism.

In short I guess what is great about being british is that you can be british and also be x y or z, but I feel we need to find a british something which can also unite us.

I guess we have differnt views of patriotism I am against the war in Iraq and yes I do think it has caused more problems than it has solved. I am also not a royalist but I am proud of who I am so to some extent must be patriotic. Loyalty to your country of residence does not have to mean you accept all the things that the government of that country does, but that you accept the responsibilities expected of you as a citizen of that country

Chandra - yes history can be twisted to suit one's purposes. But British colonosation is a historical FACT although some of the detail has be misinterpreted and misrepresented. It is not made up in the imagination of left wing loonies as some would suggest !

And yes there is more to British history than just colonisation and slavery, but then so what ? Most countries in the world have interesting histories and cultures, what is so amasing about being British ?

Being fair to the Brits abroad and immigrants to any countries (Britain included), as an inmigrant you some times can do as much as you can to integrate and feel at home in the country but we must not forget that there are many people in the country that receives you, quick to make you aware that you will NEVER be one of them.

To be pround to be british - doesn't necessarily mean to be proud of the government. Surely there is some other thing about being british? Some good things from our history to focus on?

oops proud sorry

Peachy, I'm an historian and one that I can't tell you for sure its that history is only a set of perceptions based in a fact which can be observed in a multitude of historical ways. And that applies also to Britain history (after all I studied history in this country and those are my impressions )

PS. Peachy I also want to say something nice about your last post, it's just that I don't know how to put it... and have DS asking for a nappy change, back in a sec

Peachskin no one is saying Britain is better than anyother country. Your posted suggested all there was to British history was slavery and colonisation - yes terrible things happenned but every country has historical events they should not be proud of. Also the time and context of these events has to be considered to gain a balanced view.
Slavery and colonilisation were also carried out by other countries adn to soem extent still exist today in some countries.

It does not answer how to positively enhance multi cultural Britain by looking at the negative parts of history and not looking at the positive bits such as teh openning up of trade, the impact of past cultures on us The rich history of standing up for what we believe to right ( Wat Tyler, the luddites)
To be truely multi cultural than as Ark says a common theme must be developed and then perhaps people will be more willing to learn adn accet difference

Chandra - I am not a historian, I am a lawyer, but I also studied International Relations at the London School of Economics and I also have a Masters in Politics.

There are many ways to interpret history, but once you look at all the evidence available there is usually an undeniable trend of some sort, in this case the fact that Britain, both past and present has mistreated certain countries and communities.

How do you as a historian draw "conclusions" ?? Do you not look at historical evidence ?? Of course the "evidence" can change (i.e. more is added to it or some of it becomes unreliable, etc as in a legal case), but is there any one who can point to Britain's colonial past and say, "no" it didn't exist or that it was glorious ?

Some have tried to argue that the "holocaust", did not take place, but none of us with any intelligence take them seriously.

The point is, there are entire communities and countries who are alleniated and have suffered at the hands of British and American foreign policy.

No matter how nice we think it is sitting in a pretty rose garden of a beautiful Englsh country home and sipping Earl Grey tea all afternoon, how does it address the real concerns of those communities ?

sistermoon, most of the ordinary working people who stood up for what they believed in in British history came to a nasty end!

Blimey, I took Boris's piece completely differently from most of you - he isn't saying everybody should speak English at home, he isn't saying people should lose their cultural identities. Is everything done in Latin in Catholic churches, or in Hebrew in synagogues, or just the prayers? He didn't say prayers, he said sermons.

Isn't this about opening up our cultural groups to each other by doing as much as possible in a common language, which logically should be the language of the country we're all living in? The fact that thousands of ignorant British people live abroad in enclaves and make no effort to learn the native language is sad and embarrassing but irrelevant.

I like Boris - sorry

that's obviously it then janh...the rest of us start from the assumption that Boris is a prat. Was going to refer to him by his initials, but his parents were evidently not quite as smart as they think they are when he was christened.

Janh, I quite like boris too! And I have to say it is an interesting thought provoking article.

Peachy - with regards to colonialism, I would never deny that it was not a bad thing - but I was just pondering about the good things. It is so thoroughly british to be negative about things! I would never suggest that we should forget the bad things done in the name of our country but also look at the where the basis of the abolition of slave trading came from for example.

How long can we as a nation beat itself up up for past wrongs? I lived in Glasgow for a number of years and was frequently asked how ashamed I felt about the clearings in the highlands. We mistreated not only other countries! But then show me a country with a history that isn't tainted by past events! I think the people of Hiroshima are great example of turning a negative historical event into a positive - a whole community for peace in the face of such memorable suffering.

I would never suggest that we should forget things, but surely we should also all move forward, find an identity that isn't all about the past wrongs and suffering??

TBH I don't think Latin is used anywhere anymore, unless you are at the Vatican.

Peachy, I think we are saying the same with different words. Obviously facts are facts, but how do you get to interpret them depends in multiple things, particularly on those that shape your particular perspective.

nightynight that is true but I think the ideas they represented lived on and without their stand things would be different - I think it really illustrates the point that it is individuals who make a difference and society takes alittle bit longer to catch up.
Fundamental the point of Boris' article and many of views here albeit voiced slightly differently is that there has to be an inclusive society in order for people to be free to live how they want to but also to be respectful for other people.
Back to the US and British governments yes their decisions are awful and made for teh wrong reasons but challenges to these mistakes should be peaceable and not give them an more excuses for continuing a violent policy which breeds hate

I'm confused. If a British-born South Asian stands up and says "I'm British and proud!", won't all the white Brits disagree with him?

Canada has a very successful multicultural society. Different cultural and ethnic groups even have officially designated neighbourhoods (not enforced or anything, just different street signs). I think you need to learn English or French to get citizenship, but you can live here without either. It doesn't matter, your kids will speak English or French just fine.

But anyone, of any colour, can claim to be Canadian. Nearly all Canadians are immigrants, one way or another (all of us, really, if you go back to that land bridge thing).

Oh, and understanding Arabic is an essential part of being Muslim. The Koran was written in Arabic, so (unlike the Bible) people can still read it in its original words, which is pretty important. Asking Muslims to have their sermons in English is bizarre.

Should have said ... not all the white Brits, obviously. But some would, right? And generally the sorts of Brits you'd want to avoid, as a person of non-British-descent.