Mulitcultural England - good old Boris...

[Janh]

From the Telegraph yesterday:

The voting situation is tricky. But like you say Nightnight, on the decision to go to war, there wasn't any choice, so while profoundly disagreeing on Iraq, I still voted for the Labour Party as I do support many other aspects of it's social policy. On that issue, and IMO they are still far and away the best party to vote for.

This might seem hypocritical to some but I don't agree with single-issue politics. I find that argument in itself hypocritical and, quite bluntly, it reminds me too much of how the US conduct their elections with all their slandering and dirty tricks. It?s too simplistic an approach too. Politics is incredibly sophisticated and we all need to engage with a bit of real politik at times. This was my quandary and I had the debate and voted. I don't believe anything we did would have changed Blair's decision to go to war, he was on a promise and Bush will be the reason his name is compromised in history.

I think it's time for Blair to step down. I voted for Gordon Brown.

greek orthodox services are conducted in an archaic church greek that even average greeks don't understand - does he think that that contributes to multicultural apartheid in this country?

I hate this idea of everyone needing to feel included in everything. as if all of us are identical people interested in the same things. I don't feel included whatsoever in the football culture in this country, and you could argue that it has been responsible for civil unrest, riots and deaths, but I don't want to ban football, just control moronic football hooligans.

And as for the Khans and Alis on war memorials - in the first world war India was part of the Empire and pakistan didn't exist - of course the "native troops" were rounded up and sent to fight in europe. and thank you very much to them for that, but what the hell has that got to do with anything now?

Agree with you monkeytrousers, although I did not vote for Labour, i voted for the lib dems. We all pretty much know the war was illegal, I don't think many of us would debate otherwise. The question which keeps me up at night is what do we do with Iraq now. The country is in tatters, if we leave it could fall into a civil war, I am not sure which situation is worse now. Although yes if we withdraw then terrorism is likely to be less in this country.

I don't think everyone needs to be included in everything, but I think it would be nice if we could all be included in a couple of things!!! A bit of unity now and again never hurt nobody!

I've also just seen the title of the thread, and this makes me FURIOUS

Boris is quite clearly talking about a multi-cultural BRITAIN - and yet the title of the post refers to Britain as ENGLAND. Britain, as you know, is made up of 4 countries, not just one. This ingrained attitude to the rest of the UK from a number of people south of the border is not helpful.

yingers - I am pleased that your immigrant family and friends are well integrated into British society.

I do not personally know all immigrants in the country and nor do you I suspect. The point is those that I do have the pleasure of knowing (and I say "pleasure" because I love the fact that this country has immigrants from all over the world, many of whom are extremely successful and make a real contribution to this country) do not buy Boris' concept of "Britishness" (For one thing they hate Scotch eggs and so do I !! Most of them cook and eat food superior to anything that we can call "English" food).

My point about Muslim academics and intellectuals whom I have met in this country is this: they share something with the bombers - they are not happy with the invasion of Muslim countries.

But then I suppose ignorant racist arses like Boris or Robert Kilroy-Silk would never admit to there being such a thing as a "Muslim intellectual", right ?

Slip of the brain, paolosgirl - I do apologise.

yingers - you say that pulling troops out of Iraq will create a civil war.

Hello ??? Iraq IS in a state of civil war.

What is happening in Iraq at the moment is a classic example of a civil war created by a foreign invasion.

Iraqis are blowing up Iraqis - that is the definition of a civil war.

I always find it interesting that Boris comes across/tries to come across as a quintessential English person, given his family history. There was an article on him somewhere a few months ago and if I remember correctly his great grandfather was Turkish and died in some uprising there. This chap's wife was English and died in England giving birth to their son who married a French woman and then I think Boris's own mother is American? I just thought this was interesting as he always comes across as a landed gentry type when he is as much a mongrel as any one.

We're all mongrels here, aren't we?

Will this is quite interesting in the light of the English language business. Dawn to dusk - an imam's life

TwinSetAndPEarls, is he? I'm not really that worried or maybe I should... after all, it was great to stop using latin at masses, so many decades ago, for the simple reason that everybody finally got a chance to understand what was the thing about. It will take decades to teach all catholic population a language and that if they have the will and means to learn it. This pope is going to cause a major schism if that is true...

PS - thank you once again for pointing out the obvious about Iraq. Yes the US and the UK along with their allies have f88ked up Iraq, we all know this and I certainly never agreed with the war now or then, but what I what to know is what do you think we should do now to make things better? Pointing fingers of blame is all good and well, but how does that improve things? Our govts need to come up with something more constructive to help the Iraqi people out of the mess we created for them, can we seriously just walk away now? I am not having a go at you, I just think it is a time for solutions. And before you ask, I really don't know, no path seems ideal. I just hope that our politicians and the UN have better luck as somebody has to!

I don't understand why feeling british has anything to do with liking or not liking scotch eggs. I really believe that you can both be british and whatever else you are, or perhaps that is just me. I love living in this country because of all the different cultures and opinions etc, I enjoy the fact I can walk about and nobody stares at me and thinks 'well, she is not from here' and I enjoy the fact I am in a mixed relationship and largely no one gives it a second glance. I welcome immigrants into this country, and personally I don't mind whether it is because they seek a better life or are escaping persecution. I also think that to welcome immigrants means to make them feel british and that choosing to come here they belong, although this does not mean they give up their own language etc. Perhaps I am being naive. Ok, have finished my rant and to be honest not sure if there is a poing to it!!! But I guess what I am saying is that yes there are many idiots in this country and english food is not the best, but there are also lots of positives and lets face it that is why many of us came here in the first place and is the reason our parents chose to stay here when they arrived.

Peach skin - I see on reading your post again that I had misunderstood you - apologies.

On the issue of not voting, I did not vote this year, not by choice but because I was not eligable to vote. To not vote because you cannot agree with all of the policies of a mainstream party, but yet voice strong political opinions feelsa like a cop out to me. I would rather deface my poll card and push for an abstaining option that not vote at all. imo To not vote is not a statement against a policy it is actually saying nothng at all.

I agree Ark. Whatever your opinion of politics at the moment, I think it's a very dangerous trend deciding not to vote at all. It's precisely this action that has allowed right wing extremist parties to get a foothold on the british political map.

Iraq is in a state of civil war, you?re right Peachy (hope you don't mind the nickname BTW ). The west definitely owes the Iraqi's something but I don't know what as I'm not entirely sure if the current situation isn't exactly as Bush wants it. It's hard to accept that with advisers of the experience and intelligence he has (Kissinger being one FGS!) that this outcome wouldn't have been expected.

And as much as its a given that the war was illegal, whats the general ruling on the siege of Falluga? If that doesn't fit the description of a war crime, what does?

yingers - what do you mean by "we" - "we all know we f&&ed Iraq" ?

I think you will find many people in this country and abroad disagree with your statement. Indeed many think quite the opposite. They think that a great service has been done to the Iraqi people by freeing them from the tyranny of Saddam.

I disagreed with the invasion and I disagree with the occupation. That is because I respect International Law and I respect the right of self-determination for the Iraqi people and the right of the Iraqi people to have a sovereign state.

That is why I find your statement about "we" utterly ignorant and the question posed "what I want to know is what do you think we should do now to make things better ?" even more ignorant insulting to those of "us" WHO OPPOSED THE WAR THROUGHOUT.

The fact is why do those of us who did not want the war in the first place have to think up a solution for the f*-up created by Bush-Blair et al ? "We" warned them against it and "we" would now like them to get the hell out of there asap by whatever means possible. Is that going to lead to more chaos ? What, so the fact that around 30-40 Iraqis are killed every single day isn't bad enough for you ??

As for stating the "obvious" - you did not seem to comprehend the meaning of "civil war" in your last post which is why I tried to make it more "obvious" for you.

monkeytrousers - yes even if some International Lawyers claim that the invasion of Iraq was legal (very, very few do in fact claim this) then Falluja is certainly the scene of episodes which will have to be seriously investgated by the International Criminal Court.

Not suprisingly though, Mr Bush decided that the USA did not wish to be a signatory to the ICC Treaty and so the ICC has no jurisdiction over the activities of US military personnel any where, not in Iraq, not in Afghanistan, no where at all.

The UK is a signatory to the ICC as well as the Human Rights Act. There are several cases which have been brought by Iraqi citizens against the UK Govt. under the Human Rights Act with respect to the torture and murder of Iraqi civilians. There will be more and more.

To be fair I think the 'we' pertains to the majority of mumsnetters. I think we're a fairly left field lot and would agree on that score. I also think Yingers asks a valid question about what can be done but unfortunately we're all ill-equipped to answer it, confounded as we are by our ignorance of the real motives behind it.

We aren't the ones that will ever come up with a solution. There may not be a solution. That might be the point, I don't know. In light of this, we can register our outrage but how do we transform that into action? A few of us wrote a petition, some mumsnetters can choose to sign it. It isn't much, just a small symbolic gesture. And we talk, of course, we constantly talk..

These are very dark times Peachskin. It's just surreal how they can ignore international condemnation. Rumsfeld's 'known unknowns' speech personifies the whole era. Utter madness.

my husband disagree on a fundemental issue raised by boris below. i tell him that people of faith should rate their faith of higher importance than nationality - you ask me the most important - being catholic or being british - i would say being catholic - god is higher than state.

husband thinks i am a traitor i think - should go to some reform camp and have " i am british" drilled into me via Electric shock

shamed - many people of "faith" in this country, both immigrant and non-immigrant feel the same as you. At least God is not an "elected" Prime Minister, so you can either take him or leave him right ?

I have Jewish and Muslim friends who have the same view as you.

The only crime still punishable by hanging in Britain is that of "traitor" to Queen and Country. It is still on the statute books.

Not quite sure what "traitor" means, but as a Catholic who loves God more than the Queen you might just fit the bill (excuse the pun !!

I agree that a solution needs to be found. But I am interested in the "causes" as much as the "solutions".

What is it that "causes" the US/Britain to behave as though only US/British lives are important ? I think I know why, but I like to pose the question any way !

I don't have a solution to the mess created in Iraq. Yingers seemed to be suggesting that if we have no answer we should just shut up and stop pointing an accusing finger.

But I have the RIGHT to point an acussing finger and say, no you did not go to war in my name, and I object to your continued occupation of Iraq. I have the RIGHT to say this whether or not I have a solution to the misery and destruction of Iraq.

"What is it that "causes" the US/Britain to behave as though only US/British lives are important ? I think I know why, but I like to pose the question any way !"

Well it's racism pure and simple, but that's not a reason as such..To be fair though, I think we are all dispensible to those in power, the only fundamental distinction is between rich and poor. But in order to hang on to their power and also to reconcile it with their piety, they lie to us as they lie to themsleves. They have us fighting amongst ourselves for the crumbs.

as the queen is the head of the church i wonder if she could accuse someone of being traiterous on those grounds?

People with Keys to the City can also walk their cows though Whitehall, but I doubt they'd actually be allowed to. It's just an anachronism..is that the right word?