Mulitcultural England - good old Boris...

[Janh]

From the Telegraph yesterday:

I am amazed at myself for managing to get through his first few paragraphs covering his arrogant and ignorant reactions to his introduction of Mary Seacole...but having done so, I find the whole thing deeply confused.

As I understand it, Trevor Philips et al are looking at a Britishness that does encompass a diversity of views and experiences, and has no intention of forcing every citizen into the 'Carry On Scotch Egg On the beach' stereotype that Boris identifies as the heart of Britishness (and incidentally, how very crass to suggest the Scotch Egg, which it's covering of sausage meat, as the pinnacle of britishness which, in particular, he feels Muslim men should aspire).

British Schools DO teach history in English, and DO teach British History!

He does at least (in his usual 'I'm a bumbling foolish jolly sort of intellectual, aren't I?' way) ADMIT to his ignorance over Mary Seacole, but can he not see for a moment how the fact that she faded from the teaching of history, and the public mind, so easliy, is exactly what is wrong with the notion that britain is inclusive and not still subject to the old chill wonds of colonial and supremacist thinking? How many other people thouhgt that teaching Mary Seacole was the act of a left-wing do-gooder, I wonder?

When teaching about Mary Seacole is mainstream education, and Nelson Mandela is taught as mainstream curriculum instead of just in Black History month, then, perhaps, we might be able to manage the inclusiveness which makes immigrants feel British and not need to look elswhere for a strength of identity.

It's a start, though, Blu - I had never heard of Mary Seacole, I didn't know there are Khans and Alis on the Menin Gate, and I bet a huge number of Telegraph readers didn't know either (but do now, unless they loathe Boris's jokey style too and don't read his columns).

If he hadn't written it at all, hadn't admitted his own ignorance and taught some of us something we need to know, would that have been better?

We were taught about Mary Seacole at school Alongside Florence N it is a shame that her name and her bravery are no longer taught. Blu is right for Britain to mean anything to anyone the old white upper middle class male point of view needs to be changed to one which reflects much if not all in society

Talking about rewriting history and the example hits us in the face. Something are brought up to light and others just fade in the background until somebody re-discover them again.

Janh, I think that as you have said, the article was thought provoking, and IMO was nice starting point for this interesting discussion.

Jan, no, I don't suppose it would have been better - but I'm not sure it puts him in the best position to expound about how other people 'ought' to express their britishness!

'Aha, Mr Khan, fantastic job you did out there in the trenches, sit down and share this scotch egg with me'! doesn't quite make him the great ambassador, does it?

sismoon, I may be being friday afternoon slow - but I don't understand what you mean when you say

'Britain to mean anything to anyone the old white upper middle class male point of view needs to be changed to one which reflects much if not all in society'

I don't see how you got to that conclusion nor exactly what it means. Could you explain? Genuine question by way not some wierd swipe at you

Sistermoon, I think I understand what you are saying.

I agree, "Britishness" like all forms of "nationalism" are constructs. These constructs usually eminate from those in power, i.e. the white middle class, posh accented prats with floppy blond hair, similar to Mr Boris himself. This sort of nationalism or Britishness does not appeal to the vast majority of immigrants in this country (I have many, many immigrant friends) unless they have gone totally "native".

NQC - you raise an interesting point about Canada. Canada I think is an excellent example of a relatively successful multicultural country. What I like about Canada in particular (NQC - correct me if I am wrong but a British friend who lived in Canada for 15 years told me this) is that immigrants refer to themselves as British-Canadian, or Indian-Canadian, etc. their original nationality is placed BEFORE their adopted nationality.

The reverse is true in the USA. In the USA people refer to themselves as American-Indian, or American-Italian, etc. I think this is quite significant, both psychologically and otherwise.

Both countries have been built on the basis of immigration, however, Canada is far more successful and inclusive than the USA. I think the fact that the USA follows an aggresive foreign policy (now followed by Britain) does much to alienate American immigrants. Canada usually follows a benign foreign policy that must help a great deal in race relations.

hummmm - see what you mean now - just not sure how I feel about that.

will just go around in circles if I start thinking about why I don't agree so off to have a think !!

"Peachskin from my own personal experience left wing do gooders for want of a better phrase seem intent on eradicating any vestige of British history - The history of the British Isles is far more than colonialism and slavery."

Hi, haven't caught up with all the posts but just wanted to respond to this one.

Sister, I suppose I'm a left wing do gooder and I also have my problems with some facets of British history, especially the ones that most people invoke to defend British pride. I also understand that there are many other facets and have no wish to eradicate any of it, good or bad. But I'm not in charge of writing the history books in any case, that?s left to people and committees who are very much more informed and infinitely more intelligent than I am or any amount of 'do gooders'. That argument just falls foul of a few logical fallacies, sorry.

Boris has just reminded me why I don't read the Telegraph...

peachskin, that is accurate. People here are Italian-Canadian or whatever, not American-Italian.

The US sees itself as a melting pot: whatever you are when you show up gets mixed in, you don't keep your original identity. Canada sees itself as a mosaic: people keep their original identities. And we like that.

In Toronto and Montreal, there are designated Greek, Italian, whatever areas (even Gay). The street signs have the street name, and a little bit indicating which area you're in. Of course everyone lives in whatever area they like, but it does give the areas local colour, and lets you know what area to go to for what sort of food. (Toronto has Koreatown, Chinatown, really, every sort of area.)

monkeytrousers - agree with you there. It may be true that the history of the British Isles is not just about colonialism and salvery.

Unfortunatley the latter is what seems to stick in the minds of many immigrants. And even more unfortunatley, the recent invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq (both Muslim countries) do nothing whatsoever to alleviate the fears and anxieties of Muslims living in this country. It is simply a reminder of the colonial past.

I know quite a few Mulims (academics and intellectuals - not the sort that roam around Mosques listening to "lunatic Imams"). Let me tell you something shocking ! They are not the type to agree with suicide bombings. In fact most enjoy Earl Grey tea, cricket, the English country side, even a trip to Blackpool !

However, not one of them supports the invasion of Iraq and all of them feel helpless in the face of their own Government (the labour Party currently in power) choosing to follow the maniac George Bush on foreign policy issues - i.e. you don't have to be a mad Imam or a brain-washed teenager to disagree with the concept of "Britishness" as expounded by the current British Govt.

Why did France not agree to invade Iraq ? France leaves much to be desired in terms of race relations, but might its decision not to participate in the attack on Iraq have something to do with the fact that it has an enourmous Muslim immigrant community ?

Sorry - I meant "slavery" Not "salvery" -

Monkeytrousers - sorry I was actually agreeing with your point totally - not sure if it came across in my last post !

And, pragmatically, I don't think the French government had much to loose in terms of its 'special relationship' with the US - ie, it didn't have one to start with.

Yes yes, no worries!

Oh my last point - I promise !

Janh - I do not think it is irrelevant what Brits do abraod. It is actually extremely relevant.

What you are saying is that it is ok to have double standards - i.e a Brit can emigrate to the South of Spain, never learn a word of Spanish apart from "sangria", spend his whole time in an English or Irish-run pub, never bother to talk to his Spanish neighbours, etc, but say an elderly Bangladeshi woman who came to the UK in her 80's has to go and learn fluent English, read Shakespeare, memorise important dates in British history, and drink Earl Grey (with milk, yuk !!) every afternoon in her local old folks home ?

I am sorry, but this defies logic !

We have to live abroad by the same standards that we set for immigrants here. Otherwise we will be accused of hypocracy and double standards.

The British army has tried it on too (it is ok to torture captured Iraqi's or Afghans in contravention of the Geneva Convention, but it's not ok for a captured British soldier to be tortured by Iraqi or Afghan insurgents ?

Sorry, this just doesn't work !!

invading army forces are soooooo different to the brits abroad you cannot apply the same logic.

I truely feel that the responsibility is on the country to which you emmigrate outlining its expectations and the individual conforming - not on a country ensuring its citizens wherever they are in the world conform to community rules and activities.

Chandra Latin is being reintroduced thanks to the current pope.

I do hope all of you who are ranting on here about the Torygraph and Boris Johnson didn't actually vote for the warmonger who is currently leading this country, and who took us into the illegal war in the first place

ark - you miss my points entirely.

I was not comparing British forces abroad to Brits living in Spain !

My point was about British DOUBLE STANDARDS which lead to resentment. British people living abroad and British forces abroad are examples of double standards NOT comparisons to each other.

ark - you also miss my point about double standards. I wasn't suggesting that Britain pursues its citizens abroad to ensure compliance with the rules of the country they live in. Although some people have suggested that say the Pakistani Government should do that with it's immigrants here in the UK (bloody absurd, right ??!!).

The point is the type of Brit described in my earlier posts who lives abroad cannot expect that immigrants here in the UK live by British standards when they do not live by the standards of the country they have emigrated to. That would be a double standard, right ?

No - I most certainly did not vote for Blair in any of the elections. I would most certainly be very hypocritical indeed if I "ranted" against him here and voted for him at the same time !

Having said that some people who voted for him BEFORE he agreed to attack Afghanistan and Iraq are probably extremely dismayed indeed that they voted for him.

paolosgirl - I decided long ago not to use my democratic right to vote. I object to all of the mainstream parties - on different policy issues and therefore do not vote for any of them.

"This sort of nationalism or Britishness does not appeal to the vast majority of immigrants in this country (I have many, many immigrant friends) unless they have gone totally "native"."

Er, as a person from an immigrant past myself, I have a family full of them too, come from a immigrant inner london area, pretty much all my friends are also of immigrant backgrounds, I find this a little patronising! Sorry, but are you saying that seeing yourself as british first is wrong. DO you personally know every immigrant in this country?

Oh and I know lots of muslims too, none of them like cricketn, none of them are intellectuals or academics, they don't support suicide bombers and they haven't been to blackpool - sorry just had to say it.

Double standards - universal problem, every person, country and institution is guilty of it including me (many many times!)

love Boris

go peachskin!

I didnt vote either. too p**d off with the system, and not the slightest hope of making even the smallest different (ie a straight Tory/Labour choice).