Mulitcultural England - good old Boris...

[Janh]

From the Telegraph yesterday:

Oh Peachskin, please don't do this. We all live to fight another day! And the essence of politics is diplomacy, you know that!

spent ages reading this thread.

please can someone point me to moondogs veiled racism - i didn't see it.

peachskin i hate all of iraq its a dump. that would be racist. of course i dont - i wouldn't even say it to prove a point - you were out of order.

regarding the i am sparticus with a degree....no i am sparticus with a degree and a masters.....no i work for unesco... noo i am spartucus and i work for tesco....

there is no need to cite qualifications - you acnt win a point by inferring you are right by degree or even more knowledgable.

i think peachskin you have a feather up your fanny about the white middle classes. you are prjecting you fanny feather int he direction of nationalism and racism

i would like to say there is very much more to britain than the middle class viva la revolution power to the people. Amen

moondog's alleged veiled racism was on another thread, custardo.

Can you point me to mine, please?

i thought yours was the misunderstood link - that you said sorry for.

LMB fat welsh A off at the fanny feather!

I think the whole 'I only said wales was a dump to make you all think' was a crock tbh. I think she may have typed something that she later regretted and realised made her look like a bit of a pratt. She then back tracked while trying to maintain dignity.

But I could always be wrong, wot would I kno eh?

dinasaur - thanks for the kind words.

Monkeytrousers - I will only adddress the rest of this message to you and you only beacuse I really can't take anyone else on this website seriously.

I agree that politics in practice should be about tact and diplomacy - but unfortunatley it isn't. Politics is about POWER.

I find many of the things written on this website "in the name of politics" about the Middle East in particular, vile and offensive.

Janh says that she apologised for posting from a racist website. Unfortuantley I have a very good memory and my level of perception about what people are trying to prove is very high also. I remember one particular text which she posted which compared the Arabs to "women" being frightend of the Jews and feeling ashamed because retreating from Jews was exactly like retreating from a bunch of women. She then proceeded to copy and paste further text (although I kept hinting that the website was racist) from the same website without ever bothering to QUESTION what the motives behind the website were and questioning whether it was an accurate account of the Palestine-Israel conflict. I provided links to the Guardian and the UN website, which as far as my many years of studying the region tells me, had a basic, but non-inflammatory account of the Palestine Question.

I accepted Janh's apology for not realising that the entire website was full of racist muck (she obviously had not bothered to read the home page to determine who the authors were), but she then decided to move to another thread and hold hands with moonmdog in attacking me. That was almost like retreating to another thread like a bunch of old women, to gossip about another poster, how wonderfully diplomatic and tactful !! So together with her love of Boris Johnson (again never bothering to question the man's motives which I believe are totally little-England) attacking me on an entirely different thread and refusing to accept the website was racist until I said it again and again...well...

Moondog questioned Monkeytrouser's motives in beginning a petition in support of Muslims living in the UK immediately after the London bombings. She said why are you fighting other people's battles, did she not Monkeytrousers ? It seems to me that fighting in support of minorities and fighting in support of humanity (unless that humanity happens to be Welsh) is not what moondog is all about. I have also read her "thoughts" on Turkey and Muslim men - generalisations to the point of ignorance.

Is this what I am supposed to agree with and admire in Janh and moondog ?

I have travelled all over the ME, I speak fluent Persian and very good Turkish, and if you hate me saying that "I know the region better than you" - well tough - because it is the truth and the truth sometimes bloody well hurts !

No politics is not about diplomacy. Much of it is about ignorance (i.e. being too lazy to read and questioning what one does read) and the perpetuation of ignorance, racism, domination of ethinic minorities, etc. through armed force. That is why we have the almighty supreme ruler of this world, the USA, dictating to us all how we should, think and live. That is why it commits atrociticies over and over again in the name of "democracy" (yes, it is a big democracy and and the richest nation on earth and look at how it is handling a natural disater in its own backyard - well a backyard full of poor blacks - so why should Bush bother to end his holiday too soon for a bunch of American-Africans ???).

To me America is what Gore Vidal has called the "United State of AMNESIA". It doesn't remember what is not in its interests to remmember.

It is not in the interests of the USA nor is it in the interests of the ill-informed to question anything - because if they did they would acutually have to THINK (thought is the anti-thesis of the nationalist bigot)- and that's just far too much hard work.

You are ALL welcome to attack me as much as you like. As I say, I can't really take any of it very seriously because I know excatly WHY I am being attacked and if I had the slightest respect for the the motives behind such personal attacks, I would give you some credit for doing so. But as the motives are simply to cover up for the ignorance of others well ... what can I say ! It ain't worth saying at all !!

"I see that you and your type (nationalist-racist-pretending-not-to-be-racist-non-intellectual-types) have a great deal of support on this website which is why I have decided not to waste my time here any further."

Who's generalising now?!
You call Wales a dump. You repeat the assertion. Then you claim you lied to get a reaction/prove a point. You then claim it wasn't a racist comment, which, in the light of all your other Welsh-hating comments, makes me .

Sorry, but you've lost all your credibility for me.

teeavee - like your other Nationalist friends on this website - you are talking out of the part of the body where the sun don't shine I have NEVER made a single racist comment here or elsewhere about the Welsh.

I have made comments about Wales as a geographic location and about Welsh Nationalists. You don't understand what the word "racist" means. I think of Welsh Nationalists the same as I do of the National Front, the French Nationalist Party of Le Pen, Facists in Italy, etc...i.e. I despise them.

If the Nationalists on this website had said the ME as a geographic region is a dump - one could not argue that they were racist. One could even agree, because some parts, for example the areas of Palestine bulldozed by the Israeli army ARE DUMPS - who could argue with that ?

The comments I have referred to on this website relate to the PEOPLE of that region and its main RELIGION which are blatantly racist.

If you and your friends wish to pursue your assertions of Welsh racism against me, I suggest you CAT me and have my comments here analysed in a Court of Law.

I have a feeling the judge sitting over the proceedings, once he has wasted many hours and a lot of tax-payers money reading the Welsh Nationalist's comments and my comments, will tell you that you are talking bollocks (well, perhaps that is not the exact word he would use !) and throw out the case.

Please get out of my face now !

with pleasure.

Where I used to live until 4-5 years ago was very multi-racial, and I must admit that most of the problems that I incurred was graffitti on my house or even on my front door, but then I was told by the police who had done it and that living where I do I should expect it. Needless to say the police had blamed a West Indian family and without being racist I will say that most of my neighbours were from ethnic groups and being British put me in the minority, but it was my choice to live there and it was also my choice as to whether I got on with my neighbours, which I did, and I feel that their culture helped enrich my life. Only one neighbour did I feel sometimes that I was walking 'on egg shells' with as she quite often accused people I knew were not racist as being racist because they disagreed with her.

Where I live now, should I see someone who is not English then I know they are a holiday maker. Racism has gone bonkers here! A doctor became a partner in a local practice but had to leave because he had a foreign sounding name and none of the locals would see him. He was white and English and his name should not have determined whether he was a good doctor or not!
ALL of the local Indian and chinese resteraunts (there are 4 in total) close down at the end of the tourist season as again the locals will not eat foreign food!
One thing I have seen here is a shop that openly sells 'Golly's' and no one bats an eyelid, or thinks about it as being odd. Yes they are sweet and I was given one which I have kept, but I do not think that the shop would have survived where I used to live, it would have been firebombed or something!
I think that I now realise that racial discrimination is something that is cultural and something that you are brought up to believe. Here they went bolistic and had petitions going etc when they wanted to put the asylum seekers nearby. They are the most racist group of people I have ever lived amongst and yet they were all born and bred within twenty miles of where they live now. They will not change their minds and they are not interested if you try to change it for them. But I did go and see the doctor with the foreign sounding name and told my neighbour and she just said well, 'he might be English, but it is hard to tell these days!?
Yes I think I live in a place of "Multiculteral Apartheid" and I do not like it.

your wales commment was racist.
and your comments that the majority of mumsnet is racist is ridiculous. i have never met such a wishy washy libral guardianista lot in my life bunch of pinko liberals they are

now you can all attack me and send me hate mail becuase you at mumsnet are all completely mad like that - so go on persecute me - persecute me.

ans ticking a smiley at the end of a rude bit doesnt make it nicer.

As ever, custy you are my hero! When you storm the baricades it will be a pleasure to be shot by you

And now she can lump us together as the addled brained racist clique that is MN.

(we don't understand , you see, she has come to educate us! 'Us' being the addle brained mums. )

lol HMB your fab!

I wanted to drop this, but I havent been able to shake off a deep resentment about being lumped together with fascists and Le Pen's Front National. I was insulted by those comments. Defending the inetrests of Wales and the Welsh people and language does not make one a right-wing xenophobe - of course not. I apply these aspirations all peoples and nations around the world, and I believe that tolerance begins at home. Peachskin seemed to think that disparaging comments about Wales or the Welsh wasn't as bad as insulting other peoples, such as the Palestinians, for example. That is a clear case of double standards. The principle of tolerance should apply to ALL, wherever they live and wherever their origins.

Peachskin,
there's a difference between a Nationalist party and the Front Nationale.

A person can support the Welsh Nationalists because they genuinely believe that Wales would benefit economically and culturally from having politically independent status.
That's a perfectly valid viewpoint.

The people who call themselves Nationalists in the nationalfront and the front nationale, are motivated by a belief that a group of people defined by genetics, is superior to another group of people, which is a very different thing altogether.

peachskin, please do us a favour, and stop making it obvious that you think you're more intelligent than everyone else around here! I hope you'll stay around because I like reading your posts, they are logical and interesting, except for that smugness which gets right up my nose.

blast, didnt preview that message. just realised the first sentence doesn't make sense. But I think it's clear what I mean.

yes it makes sense - a good post too

Yes the academic snobbery is a bit of a PITA isn't it?

Just out of interest PS there are lots of people on MN with PHds, masters degrees a -pleanty, mums with all manner of amazing qualifications, people with experience of the most amazing places, jobs, hobbies and talents. And guess what? They don't expect everyone to kowtow to them because they have them.

There are Mums on here with no academic qualifications with so much good sense, life experience, organisational skill, compassion and real world experience that would make a Professor of the LSE weep with envy. These people make valid, well thought out points that are worth listening to.

You can't pop in here and expect us to all sit in rapt hero woship at you qualifcations, sorry.

There are Phds on here who disagree with each other in major issues. vaccination being a biggie. But to my memory, these people wear their qualification lightly and don't try to bowl people over with 'I'm smarter than you are'. And incidentaly have probably changed far more minds that way!

And I am still stunned that soemone can support Hamas, but lump all nationalist groups in with le Pen?

Ooer! I feel a bit guilty as if I reopened an argument that had been laid to rest, I am very sorry to all. Having said that I think that HMB's post is very good and true. I am not saying what qualifications I have or have not but what I will say is that I have no common sense! I would trade in a lot of my education just for a little bit of logical common sense that most people seem to have naturally.

Custardo, I agree also with your posts and oh boy! I really want to come to London but could you please let me know who you are as I am scared of getting on your wrong side! I am only joking, but you succinctness is something that I am in awe of and I feel that I need lessons in as my posts are far to long, so please don't shout at me but a few pointers if necessary would be appreciated.

And finally for what it is worth I think Racism is racism. It does not matter to what degree, party or culteral group, if you shun one person for their beliefs over anything then is that better than shunning a group of people for the same thing? IMHO I think that you are and should disagree with thinks that you do not believe in and that is fine just as long as you use 'sensible' and logical justification for doing so. We are all entittled to our own opinions and I would be the first on the bandwagon to fight for your democratic right to speak your views. I do not believe that you have the right to dilike a particular portion of society just because they hold different views to yourself and I don't care if those views are political, religous or even due to disability. Tolerance is a word I have not read in this thread and I feel that if we all showed a little tolerance and let others live as they want, just as long as they keep their views to themselves and do not try and force them onto others then society would be a much nicer place, whether in RL or cyberspace.
Now I feel that I woke this thread up for which I am sorry, so I am going to put it to bed again to rot in the archives of mumsnet towers!

bunglie, I have a feeling that it will only lie until Peachskin sees it!

The disagreement between Moondog and Peachskin is a war of attrition basically. Both feel strongly about their beliefs and both, to a greater or lesser degree are guilty of being less than respectful of the opinion of the other, if that makes sense...

FWIW, I don?t know what you wanted out of your argument against Islam, Mooney. You made some good points but (forgive me for generalising ? I don?t have the time to go back and read all the threads) also demonised Islam in rather sweeping terms instead of its interpreters and interpretations. I?m no apologist for Islam, as I?m no apologist for any religion ? but I do see that religion fulfils a profound need in a great many of us. It?s a belief system, and as such can?t be refuted by logic ? just like any religion. It?s faith and faith is unfalsifiable. You also made an argument against Islam and Shia as misogynous as it very clearly appears to be, but again I feel this missed the point a bit. Islam (or religion per se) isn?t responsible for misogyny, human nature is. It?s just happens to be a very good conduit for it, as, in an even wider spectrum, all systems of control are.

Peachskin, you?ve brought a lot to the table in these discussions but have the habit of upping the stakes sometimes emotionally that is puzzling and at odds with a logical approach.. I don?t know if you?ve read the thread on racism? It was discussed that racism was a continuum that began as some benign universal state, such as the human need to be discerning and ending in the pernicious and wilful ignorance that is racism. It?s a tricky area. I couldn?t point to a place on that continuum and say definitively where discerning becomes discrimination becomes racism. What was decided I think was that throwing such terms at people trying to articulate themselves in such a minefield is not the best way to get anywhere. Have you read the Wiltshire thread? That is how we on mumsnet treat people who are explicitly (though in Wiltshire?s case she believed unfairly) labelled racist.

Now, please can we put our egos back in their boxes and get on with the discussion. And no sniping from either of you now!

Bunglie, you make some really good points. I for one haven?t used the word ?tolerate? as I don?t like the word. It smacks of uneasy compromise. Racists feel irked that they must ?tolerate? and not ?accept? people of other races and religions into their world. It?s still possible to tolerate and hate. It?s has too much of that negative connotation about it for me.

This bit (posted by PS 25/8 1.37pm)

since she is here, posting, on the thread that we "dishonestly" posted on.

Oh, good grief, going in circles here - thanks anyway to those who defended our integrity (I missed a few posts along the way earlier).

I know PS will be back and will have a few more vituperative words for me but hey, who cares, frankly.

You raise an interetsing point about connotatoins of the word'tolerance', MT. For me, it had always conveyed something more positive than , just 'enduring' or 'allowing something one dislikes' (to paraphrase the oxford english concise!). It is, arguably, an inadequate term within such a complex context.