Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

News

is multi-culturalism dead?

242 replies

yingers74 · 01/08/2005 23:05

Am not any good at doing links but won't try. Have read a lot of articles including the original (before the bombs) by Trevor Philips(I think, could be wrong) who thought the multi-cultural model had failed. What do people think?

OP posts:
Papillon · 12/08/2005 21:12

I think thats a good idea MT... rather than huffing around ´in the news´

You can start the petition though

moondog · 12/08/2005 21:34

Bubble-as brilliant and reasoned as ever!

bubble99 · 12/08/2005 22:31

And I've killed this thread too.

moondog · 12/08/2005 22:42

No,you've just said all that needs to be said!

peachskin · 13/08/2005 09:57

Moondog - perhaps you would like to explain why it is that you see non-Welsh speaking people moving into your beautiful Welsh countryside as genocide ? And yet here you are pretending that you like multiculturalism ?

You don't even like non-Welsh speakers in your village (or town or wherever it is you live in Wales) ? So, I wonder how happy you would be if a bearded, oh my God, MULSIM man and his family, who speaks very little English let alone Welsh, moved in next door to you in Wales ? May be he has already have which is why you are so cheesed off ?

I love a good debate, especially when the person I am talking to is intelligent and provides EVIDENCE (history, politics, law, whatever) rather than ANECDOTES to prove her/his point. There is a big difference between the two.

I am not an apologist for Islam or Muslims or atrocities committed under the name of Islam or any other banner. I do not like Sharia Law (as a lawyer who doesn't support capital punishment I would be a hypocrite if I did) nor do I support the oppression of women in any society.

But let's get something straight for everyone who thinks that saying any thing in support of Muslims is just being PC: bad legal systems, wars in the name of religion, the oppression of women, atrocities against ethnic minorities, etc have existed in Europe and throughtout what we now call the civilised world.

In fact atrocities still exist in the civilised world. Over 7,000 Muslims were murdered in a matter of hours BECAUSE THEY WERE MUSLIMS right here in the heart of Europe just a few years ago. Now, aren't we more civilised then "them" ?

My objection is that there are people on this website and elsewhere in our wonderful civilised Britain, who attribute atrocities ONLY to Mulsims and Islam without any regard to history, culture, political systems, geography etc.

To me that is racism pure and simple. This is exactly what members of the National Front are very good at doing: because women are dressed a certain way they MUST be oppressed, their men MUST be aggressive a...holes, they blow themselves up so they can enjoy 72 virgins in paradise (believe me there are easier ways of doing that - you can get yourself a ticket to Bangkok or Sri Lanka or somewhere else where there is a good trade going on in child prositution and if you are willing to pay, you can get yourself even more than 72 virgins right here in this world !! ).

I don't talk about Muslims or any other religious group in this manner, because I don't wish to be an apologist for the National Front.

ps - there has always been a debate among Muslim scholars about the true meaning and transaltion of the Hadith with respect to the meaning of the verses which contain the so-called "72 virgin" reference. There is a piece of research being undertaken right now somewhere in Luxemburg I believe by European academics who argue that the Arabic and Aramaic translations of that particular text are very different. Even the word "Houri" which can be translated into "virgin" means something completly different in Aramaic.

It will be interesting to see the academic debate which follows this research as it is clearly the basis for so much racist abuse aganist Muslims.

Another crucial point: the vast majority of Muslims, like the vast majority of Christians and Jews lead lives that do not involve them in politics. Even more importantly, millions of Muslims are secular both in their private lives and in their attitude towards politics. This is becoming increasingly important throughout Muslim countries where the young and women especially are fighting their own battles to reform their legal systems in favour of incresaing human rights. This is fact not fiction.

Lets' be very clear: questioning, analysing, debating are very different animals to criticising in the hope that one can prove a racist "we are superior to them" point.

peachskin · 13/08/2005 10:12

bubble99 - I agree with most of what you said in your last post.

However, the discussion re. Muslims in Europe, USA, Australia, etc at the moment is anything but PC. Much of it is ignorant and racist. That is my objection.

Several well-known ME academics (one of them my ex-Prof. at the LSE, Prof. Fred Halliday) have done extensive research on the rise of Islamophobia.

They provide a frightening picture. No nice PC stuff I am afraid. We are talking Muslims (women, men and children) being murdered beacuse they they are Muslims.

monkeytrousers · 13/08/2005 10:46

I hate the way political correctness comes in for such a bashing these days. Yes, there are some reported cases of idiocy (oh, how the tabloids love a PC expose) but what isn?t is the basic tenet of thinking about what you say before you say it. That?s just good manners and common sense, isn?t it? On that level, I?m all for it!

I agree with you PC - ha, that?s as coincidence, isn?t it? - The rhetoric surrounding this debate is by default racist. Everything George Bush says reveals the level of his own bigotry and not just towards Muslims, but to the poor of all religions. So racism and intolerance is endorsed from high, the policy makers add their caveats and disclaimers afterwards. That suits the Tory/Republican mindset very well though. For them it is the ?survival of the fittest? and the rest of us are cannon fodder to their cause. Though their fitness is relative, of course.

In this I see no difference between Bin Laden and Bush ? they are two sides of the same coin and actually seem bedfellows as far as it seems both their goals is to inspire fear and conflict among us plebs.

peachskin · 13/08/2005 16:05

MT - beautifully concise and to the point as usual

Yes, I totally agree, thinking and analysing BEFORE opening ones mouth seem to have become a crime ! But then it is so much easier to be lazy and talk anecdotally all the time. Thinking takes up too much space in the brain !

I had a prof. who said he would love to fail any student of International Relations who hadn't bothered to read the writings of Kant.

I wish that could be applied to diplomats and politicians, so we could test them on their knowledge of Kant before we allowed them to run our lives !

Carla · 13/08/2005 16:06

Multi-culturalism ISN't dead.

monkeytrousers · 13/08/2005 19:51

It's more concise after a debate with Blu on another thread.

There are examples of 'political correctness gone mad' like Blu said and the tabloids love them but rarely report them in context. The Tories like this phrase too - what was there election slogan - It isn't racist to want to talk about immigration - something like that, which as true but generally the way they talk about it is.

AND after ridiculing political correctness they then invoked it with the claim that the Labour Party banners were anti-semitic. What kind of a double standard is that? Something is an affront to your civil liberties when you can't say something offensive, but when someone says something that offends you the opposite is true..
..

tatt · 14/08/2005 11:46

peacedove yes you did annoy me because I thought your response was childish and I have enough children to cope with, especially in school holidays, without adding another one.

Go back and read the qurun, "think" about what you are being told now and the corruption of your faith is obvious. I'd quote specifics but since you aren't here for debate - something which was quite obvious - there really isn't any point in continuing the discussion. I spend a limited amount of time on the net and there are far better ways to use it.

peacedove · 17/08/2005 15:54

hi tatt

very busy, but here is something. Obviously you have read the Qura, yet you kepp spelling it qurun.

Do you know Arabic?

Do you know the difference between "Quran" and "qurun"?

newbohemian · 09/12/2016 14:00

Oh God, I rolled my eyes at that cliche 'celebrating multiculturalism', then noticed the posts were from 2005. You don't hear that New Labourite phrase much any more. Isn't it something only white people do? It never seems to work the other way round.

Itisnoteasybeingdifferent · 12/12/2016 08:38

I used to live in Hackney. Hackney is put forward as a model of a successful multicultural community. That was not my experience. I saw multiple cultures living cheek by jowl to each other yet not having anything to do with each other. The is a huge Hassidic Jewish community in Stamford Hill. I nevr saw an OJ (orthodox jew) talking with anyone other than a fellow OJ in the streets. I certainly never saw a jew of any variety talking with a muslim. Both groups took no notice of the Africans who seemed to ignore Afro Caribians whilst the Turkish kept to themselves to the extent that on one ocassion when I bought some Turkish Pidde (the traditional flat Turkish bread) from a local corner shop the owner commented that I was the first and only non Turk who had ever bought their bread. Meanwhlle there are enclaves of ethnic English moving into the "up and comming" parts near Victoria Park. What is the likelyhood they will be holding dinner parties and inviting the Turks, muslims (sunni and shia), OJ and lapsed jews, Nigerians, Jamaicans, etc etc etc? Or will they only talk with other ethinc English who are so very pleased with themselves at having boght a house just before prices started to rocket?

Aftertheraincomesthesun · 12/12/2016 09:44

Zombie thread

MaryTheCanary · 13/12/2016 03:22

"No one forces you to live under the sharia. In an Islamic society, you wouldn't be required to cover your face. However, there would be a requirement to be modestly covered. "

Erm, what the hell? If people are "required" to be modestly dressed, then of course they are being forced to live under a set of laws they did not necessarily choose.

Manumission · 17/12/2016 03:29

How did you stumble across it newbohemian?

New posts on this thread. Refresh page