is multi-culturalism dead?

[yingers74]

Am not any good at doing links but won't try. Have read a lot of articles including the original (before the bombs) by Trevor Philips(I think, could be wrong) who thought the multi-cultural model had failed. What do people think?

Moondog - sorry but what you say about Saudi's does not apply to women in other parts of the Muslim world. It is extremely easy to get to know Turkish, Iranian, Iraqi, Jordanian, Lebanese, Egyption, etc. women both in their own countries and here in the UK.

No one stops them from becoming friends with a foreigner. Indeed whenever I have travelled to the ME I have been approached by both men and women who are fascinated by Briatin and wish to know what life is like for us Europeans. If you live in their country and wish to get to know them it is very easy indeed !

I don't know much about life in Saudi, but I have met other Arab women from the Persian Gulf region here in London. They don't seem to be different from other women, and have the same sorts of concerns, where to go to school, what to study at university, how to find a good husband , how many children to have, what brand lipstick is the best, etc !

It is inaccurate to protray all Muslim countries as closed and so dominated by the men that the women can't leave the house, etc. That is yet another myth I am afraid.

Moondog - my credentials are not perfect - but what I like in myself as a human being is my ability to have sympathy with other cultures and religions without much effort - it's just the way I am.

moondog - you are an excellent piss-taker ! Are you sure you are not a Sun journalist or something ??

Of course there's nothing to prevent me or anyone else from becoming friends with Muslim women formother countries. Did I ever suggest otherwise???
What odd conclusions you draw (or is that part of your legal training?)

Of course these women are the same as us-that's why Ii find it so irritatingv when some are hidden away,be it literally or figuratively.

To recap Islam is great......most of it anyway.......I was interested in PD's interpretation of the 72 virgin thing simply because noone else has been able to do so,and I know that he is never lost for words.
I look at things on a micro level,he and you on a macro one.

Different strokes for different folks.

pd - tah for article, will read it later just quickly have to say, what were you doing up so late?

moondog - I find your tone and attitude both on this thread and elsewhere extremely irritating - almost as irritating as PD

I think you also have a very serious inferiority complex as evidenced by your comment about show offs who read books !!

My legal training has nothing to do with my deductions about you.

I am not a litigation lawyer, but if I were I think I would find it very easy indeed to expose you as a fraud (i.e. you don't actually believe in half the stuff you pretend you believe in) !!

Peachskin.....gosh,I'll get over it!!!

PS I think its a "dead horse" topic to the average politician. Which is why I am here typing and enjoying the party. From a stint working with the International Post I found diplomacy very homogenious in its undertakings. I think that real conversation wilts and dies in a one method approach - too much interest in getting everything over and done with in a Western style.

I like living in Europe (as a kiwi) its far more diverse culturally. I find it good for my mind and freedom as an individual. NZ is great but not so colourful.

Moondog is your ar§e as pitted as the moon from the the ´hound´ing you get on threads! Beautiful flamboyancy. I am enjoying reading both your posts PS and Moondog because they offer most interesting insight into multiculturalism and the influence of personality / profession / worldviews. It reminds me of police reports from a dozen people, how they all vary even thought they ´saw´the same thing.

papillon - your are right. No one comes here to agree on everything !!

However, the fact that some just use the website to take the piss out of other people when they are trying to engage in a serious topic, is rather irritating !

I am also annoyed that some are here as wolves in sheep's clothing (or should that be "dogs" in "sheep's" clothing - appropriate terminology for the Welsh or is that too stereotypical and prejudices for you Moondog ??)

The discussion is about multiculturalism and
most of what I seem to hear on this website is "anecdotal evidence" of how Muslims behave like animals, always qualified with a hypocritical, "oh, but I have a couple of Muslim friends who are lovely people" !!

To be honest I have no idea why I have logged onto a parenting website and ended up talking politics ! I am beginning to think I am wasting my time.

Moondog - I forgot to address your assertion that what is happening in rural Wales is "quite accuratley" described as "genocide" as defined by the UN.

This is the definition of Genocide:

"The international legal definition of the crime of genocide is found in Articles II and III of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide.

Article II describes two elements of the crime of genocide:

1. the mental element, meaning the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such", and

2. the physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called "genocide."

Article III described five punishable forms of the crime of genocide: genocide; conspiracy, incitement, attempt and complicity.

----------------
Excerpt from the Convention on the Prevention and
Punishment of Genocide:

"Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Are you telling us that there is the "mental" as well as the physical "element" so that a genocide is occurring in Wales ?

Are the Welsh being deliberately murdered by another ethnic group, etc as defined above ? I seem to have missed out on that one on Channel 4 News !!

I am sure Monkeytrousers would agree with me PS that I find your posts worthwhile reading and am enjoying the debate. I am sure as a lawyer you readily recognise that language has its spokes and pedals - why did I just think spokes and pedals then! Perhaps because is describes the wheel of life turning and all the aspects involved.

In defence of viewpoints that perhaps don´t appear as linear as your own I think that reflects life, nothing is black and white, which is why having opinions which are too rigid can often end up catching its own tail. I find spirituality (even religions too) abit like multi-culturalism, so fascinating because there is always an element of ´?´attached and I think humans need ?to survive.

PS

Your point being???????

(Knew I'd have you scurrying off to do a bit of research. What a lot of time you must have on your hands.O)

Just scrolling idly for my earlier references to Muslims 'behaving like animals'.

Hmmmmmm...can't find it yet.
I'll keep on looking eh?

pd - interesting article, but am a little disheartened that the writer also did not seem to have any suggestions in how to reach out to the disillushioned. But that is just me, I like to think that there are answers out there somewhere. ALthough saying that I guess that was not the point of his article so am being a bit unfair on him.

Let us hope that that the Israel withdrawal of settlers from the Gaza strip which herald the start of better things in the ME and perhaps within our own communities.

tatt, I think I have annoyed you. Wasn't my intention, but since you raised the question of faith-testing, I wanted you to realise that there are enough temptations and tests of faith in our lives, at least in mine, without having to place extra ones on ourselves. And I gave you examples of some extra tests we could set ourselves, which I am sure no one here would agree to place.

Second, I am not here for a debate, but I do raise points that question the very basis on which modern civilisation is based. I can understand that would make anyone uncomfortable. I also realise that this is primarily a mothers' site, and they have difficulty enough without putting them to so much trouble, so I will be more reticent in the future, inshallah.

You and I share the view that Paul corrupted Christianity. But we are told in the Quran, and this is my experience too, that many Christians love life-forms, and that is commendable.

You say that similarly Imams have corrupted Islam. Can you be more specific? You have identified Paul as a corrupter of Christianity, so can you identify one or more imams who have so corrupted Islam? I would really like to know that.

As for Blair, saint or human, let us agree to differ on this one if you still aren't convinced that he lied.

moondog, I said "practical problems of living in places where cultural practices and traditions are strictly enforced in the name of religion."

you replied: "At least you acknowledge that there are 'practical problems' of living in a place where religious traditions are enforced."

I think there is a vast difference between what I said, and what you think I have said. don't you?

I also think your experience is due to living in Eastern Turkey. There are many parts of the rural world where women are not seen, and do not participate in outside activities. But again in farming communities, they are very much visible and productive. And urban women, even when fully veiled, are very, very knowledgeable and participate fully in life's activities. So you experience that you put down to religion, is in fact cultural.

yingers, don't expect any answers to the problems yet. There is an attempt to get at the roots of the problems. It is not necessary that one researcher will get everything right. You should bookmark that page and explore the other links on it to have a look at other inputs.

peachskin, I keep wondering if the world will ever have a peaceful life for all, or are we doomed to be used as pawns or targets by power and profit-seeking individuals and corporations?

moondog - I am sorry to disappoint you re. me going off to do research and having lots of time on my hands.

It took me about 30 seconds to copy and paste the Articles of the Genocide Convention !!

I am working towards specialising as a Human Rights Lawyer and this particular Convention is pretty damned important to me.

I then went off and fed my baby and put him down for his afternoon nap. So I have more free time now to answer you questions !!

If you make inaccurate references to International Conventions/Treaties in the hope that you can prop up your point about the Welsh, I think it is only fair that someone else should have the right to refute it !!

Logical, eh ?

Believe me logic and reason are the only things I am interested in - without these two wonderful things the world will be run by a bunch of ANIMALS, both Mulsim and Non-Mulsim.

In case it is not entirely clear to you, the rise of Islamophobia is as dangerous to me as was the rise of Fascism. It needs to be stopped.

yingers I have an idea about what difference some of us can make.

When I came to Britain, I sought and obtained a room at a Uni hostel. Then when the University closed for winter holidays, and the hostel was also closed, I sought a place with an English "Christian^ family, so I could spend Christmas and a full month with it.

I already had a multicultural background in the sense that many of my previous schools had been run by priests, some of my classmates had been Hindu and Christian, and I had lived for a few years next door to a Buddhist temple with a big statue of Buddha.

The University Services found me lodgings with an electrician and his wife, who had two own children and two foster children. The husband and wife went dancing every Friday night, and the children and I had a wonderful time, with me sometimes telling them stories. We even sang nursery rhymes and boy, did the kids enjoy it.

I told my landlady that I avoid anything to do with pigs and alcohol, and that although I am required to eat only zabeeha (or halal) or kosher meat, my doctors had told me I needed animal protein, so I would be prepared to eat beef and mutton and chicken.

She respected my food restrictions, and although she tried to set me up with gfs, I just avoided them but was too timid at first to tell her this is against our faith to go out alone with the opposite sex, when they are not closely related.

If you want and have a room to spare, you can ask your local uni or college that you have lodgings for Muslim (or other cultural minorities), and you can discuss with them any taboos they have. If someone lives in the same premises as you, it will bring to his/her notice that not all belonging to the "other" are monsters.

MT, what is the link between the neo-con crusade and the feminist agendas?

You see, both are based on the assumption that man is supreme, that the civilisation of today is a natural progression of the previous ones, and that faith is a private matter of the individual. While rights of association and worship are guaranteed (at least in words) to all, the right to see that God created us and formulated a set of rules for us to follow is considered heresay in the modern creed.

Errrrrr,no peacedove I don't.
Yet another example of your curious thinking.

Chuckling at you 'assertion that 'urban women,even when fully veiled are very very knowledgeable and participate fully in life's activities'.

Gosh peachskin,you're one busy woman-minding the baby and telling us all what does and doesn't Need To Be Done.

Neither do I recall asking you any questions peachskin (apart from one or two rhetorical ones.)

3 strikes and you're both out!

Thats great Peachskin, wishing to become a Human Rights Lawyer - all the best to you

LOL adhominem

Crikey, you've all been busy!

Yes I agree Paps.

Moondog, you are like a dog with a bone!

PS - I agree with you absolutely on logic and reason but I'm always confounded by my own ignorance. I started late..

Gonna try think about your point about the neo-cons and feminism PD, but I think I'm right at the edge of my comfort zone with this. Not even sure I understand the hypothesis.

Exits stage left scratching head..

Moondog - I did not say that you asked me or any one else a question.

I was hoping that someone like you who has spent so much time in Turkey + has parents who spent nearly 2 decades in that region would have something intelligent or as a minimum "interesting" to say about those 2 countries. Instead you give us lots of "tabloid" impressions. If we wanted that we would just go and read "The Sun".

If I wanted my knowledge of Muslims from The Sun, I am sure I would find it less time consuming to read and much more amusing (ha..ha..ha..sort of amusing !!)than logging on to this website !!

You made an ASSERTION re. the international definition of "genocide" and the Welsh. So I got this impression in my head of "non-Welsh speakers" going around rural Wales with pick axes killing the native Welsh (and a few sheep perhaps for their dinner - yummmm I love Welsh lamb : ) ;)

So I just wanted to paste the Genocide Convention which defines "genocide" for the benefit of those not familiar with it.

I am not here to tell any one what they ought to do. However, as an individual who has many beloved friends from the Muslim world, I feel I ought to defend their rights in the face of misconceptions and in some cases downright bigotry. Had I been around during WWII (I am too young for that !!), I would have done exactly the same for my Jewish friends.

Clearly though I am on the wrong website. I ought to be having these discusions in a history/politics/law forum.

Apologies to any one who has wasted their time reading my posts !!

MT - I think you fully understand logic and reason.

That's why I have enjoyed reading your posts

Papillon - I am trying to exit this thread tonight before my DH thinks I have found a lover or something (he is asking me why I am typing so fast ???!!!)...thanks for the best wishes ; ) : )

PS ,you made a good point at 6:58 on Wednesday to the effect that criticism of Israel was not (necessarily) anti Jewish.

I apply the same logic to my criticism of Islam. If a lawyer can't even work that one out,then I can no longer be bothered to point it out.

You seem to have a view of yourself as a warrior against a world of bigots and racist.
Your opinions are more to do with making yourself feel important than anything else......similar to Peace Dove really (although I do concede that his posts do at least make me think about think.Yours don't.)

Your comment about 'defending the rights' of your 'many beloved Muslim friends' is embarassingly patronising. I'm sure they can manage just fine without you to hold marauding MNers at bay.

The icing of the cake is however your idiosyncratic use of inverted commas.

Don't dish out crap and not expect some to come back your way.

I'll leave you and PD to massage each others egos further now.
Enjoy!