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is multi-culturalism dead?

242 replies

yingers74 · 01/08/2005 23:05

Am not any good at doing links but won't try. Have read a lot of articles including the original (before the bombs) by Trevor Philips(I think, could be wrong) who thought the multi-cultural model had failed. What do people think?

OP posts:
peachskin · 10/08/2005 13:57

MT - you made a very good point about moderate Israelis. I do agree that moderates in the entire ME region have to be encouraged.

Unfortunatley, the double-standards in Big Power foreign policy-making leave those moderates in the ME extremely confused.

We have a situation where moderates in say Saudi Arabia are NOT encouraged because Saudi Arabian Kings (as friends of the West and the largest exporters of oil in world), need to be cossetted, despite the fact that they have the most oppressive of so-called Islamic regimes.

The outgoing Iranian President (Khatami) is a western-educated (he has PhD a in Philosophy from a German university) liberal. He struggled for the past 8 years to improve the situation of women in Iran, to allow more freedom of the press, to improve relations with the West, etc. and where did it get him ? No where.

The Iranian reform movemnet has been let down. Hundreds of Iranian students have been arrested beacuse they supported the reform movement under Khatami and the USA never lifted a finger to help this movement. It just cornered Iran more and more, thretaened it with invasion al la Iraq style, until the Iranian public out of fear of a US attack decided to go and vote for a non-liberal President. Is this called intelligent foreign policy from the US ??

So yes, moderates everywhere need to be encouraged. However, it's just not happening under the current US leadership.

peachskin · 10/08/2005 14:30

tatt - Muslims accept Christ as a phrophet in a long line of prophets. His teachings are respected. However, they do not accept that he was "The Son of God".

Christ came to teach forgiveness. I accept that. Is that because God had changed his mind and realised that he had been too harsh in the Old Testament and wanted to make amends ?

Sorry, I am not being silly, but as a non-believer of any relgion, I think this is a serious issue for me. I find it difficult to understand why it is that the 3 religions of "the Book" have such widley different views of the same God.

Surely the Bible, Torah and Koran are open to huge amounts of interpretaion and always will be.

There is a great deal of disagreement among Muslim scholars as to the proper meaning and implemnetaion of Islamic Laws. The Sharia Laws that we see in place in various Muslim countries are very much a matter of local and cultural interprtations. They are not "set in stone" as it were. That is why I think they will be abolished altogether eventually with the rise of more liberal regimes in the Muslim world.

peacedove · 10/08/2005 14:31

MT and peachskin, it wasn't a very long time ago when Israel enjoyed full support of the Europeans and the US.

I still think our views are clouded by reading the Guardian and the Observer, the leftish liberal newspapers.

How do you explain St. Blair (to respect tatt's opinion) being reelected with 60 MPs, and with the rallying around his repressive laws.

Heathcliffscathy · 10/08/2005 14:34

oh peachskin, so say it so well re Iran. it makes me so sad and angry. double standards is a total understatement in terms of our foreign policy. it sucks.

peachskin · 10/08/2005 14:49

peacedove - I respect alot of what you say.

However, I think I would much rather read the Guardian and Observer (any day !) than say the bloody (excuse bad language) Standard which only today has the headline "Mad cleric got heart operation on NHS" (excuse the paraphrase - I never buy the damned newspaper just walked past a big heading near my local Tesco's this morning).

It is just the kind of headline members of the National Front could have written. It creates nothing but more fear and more prejudice against Muslims in this country.

peachskin · 10/08/2005 15:05

tatt - one more thing. You are very, very wrong to assume that there was no opposition to saddam in Iraq or the Arab world.

There was an enormous amount of opposition to Saddam both within Iraq and outside. I think the mothers and fathers of Iraqi men and women who died opposing Saddam and the 1 million Iranian soldiers and 1000's of Kuwait soldiers who died defending their land against Saddam's forces would be extremely upset indeed to be told that there was no opposition to Saddam and they all just hung around for the US of A to come and save them. That is just insulting.

I am sorry, but your comments demonstrate ignorance of ME politics and it's wonderful people - pure and simple.

moondog · 10/08/2005 15:13

My word Peace Dove. Are you still at it??
You have such an issue with democracies. Yes,Blair got in on a very slim democracy,but that is the beauty of a democracy.Whether people choose to vote or not is up to them. The consequences of not doing so are the scenario that you find so upsetting.
Maybe next general election,people will bear this in mind.

What I find nonsensical is Muslims who use democracy to get into power (at whatever level) and then denounce democracy. Eh?????

Democracy is the pinacle of a civilised and decent society.

I wonder what paper/s you read??

peachskin · 10/08/2005 15:19

moondog - welcome !

I would be interested to hear what your definition of the "pinacle of the civilised" world is ??

So do you regards Europe and the USA as the pinacles of this magical world ?

And where does that leave the rest of the world ? On the crap heap of primitives ??

moondog · 10/08/2005 15:25

I have argued this a lot on MN (not as much as PD admittedly. )

To recap briefly.....

Europe and USA doing some very dodgy stuff atm.

Completely understand why Muslims are disaffected by 'Western' society. (Excellent article by Conservative MP about this in this week's Spectator)

Live in a Muslim country,have many Muslim friend and neighbours.However take issue with several aspects of Islam,its treatment of women in particular.

In a democracy,everyone has a say-men,women,the poor and marginalised. Whether they choose to take up the opportunity is another matter.
What could be more civilised than that?????

moondog · 10/08/2005 15:26

Dh works in development,so have a pretty good grasp of state of affairs in less developed/marginalised parts of the world.

peachskin · 10/08/2005 15:42

moondog - you live in Turkey for part of the year don't you ?

I have read many of your comments on other threads re. Turkey.

I don't think taking a "we are a democracy and you are not and therefore we are somehow superior" stance is very helpful to this discussion.

Yes, Britain is a democracy and people do have their say. But having your say without any of it ever being implemented is not very civilised is it ?

Your comment re. Muslims using the process of democracy to come to power only to denounce it later, could be applied to any number of relgions and countries. This is not purely a Muslim failure, is it ??

monkeytrousers · 10/08/2005 16:29

Pd, the Israeli situation is a quagmire. It was just a thought that it may be one of the many reasons that the US gives it so much support. Those reasons will have been adapted over the years, but one thing you can be sure of is that the continuing support is somehow in the US interest, whatever that may be.

Why do you think the US opposes international opinion and is so soft on Israeli belligerence?

peacedove · 10/08/2005 17:14

tatt - Temptations

Let us put drugs and cyanide on our kitchen shelves. When our children get depressed or upset, easy availablilty will be a test of their faith.

Let us also have the gun laws of the good old US of A here. Test of faith, you see. Guns easily available, and then we can see if faith stops our children from using them.

Why stop at guns; let us have the whole arsenal, and maybe we see a repeat of Columbine here as well, and we can then be sure whose faith is unflinching, and whose isn't.

Shall we have a vote on this concept of faith testing?

moondog - what papers do I read?

I used to read almost every national paper, from the most right wing to the most leftish one, but gravitate overwhelmingly towards the Guardian.

I was only pointing out the pitfalls of reading the Guardian, and thinking the world will change because the Guardian makes sense to us.

The issue with democracies is a fundamental flaw in thinking that man learns from his mistakes, and will always be able to correct what wrong he has committed. Wrong, wrong, wrong!

Mankind keeps going round and round in circles, with even more destructive power, and the will to use it. Plus add the corporate and private greed to the equation.

A majority of 60 MPs isn't slim by any means, and you miss my point.

By what moral right are Western democracies allowed to bomb and kill people and occupy their lands, provided these unfortunate ones live in the third world?

peachskin - I respect your views, too. But I see the God in all three major religions as the same God, albeit with some distortion. For example, the Torah talks of Yhwh as the God of Israel. He isn't the God of twelve tribes. He is the Universal God. Similarly, the Jews used the phrase "son/s of God" for themselves, specially their respected ones, but Paul used this to ascribe a parenthood to God, and the Council of Nicea threw out the other, more authentic concept.

Islam is not the strict law of the Jews, or the permissiveness of the Christians. It is the middle way. However, we were told that we would follow in the footsteps of the nations that have gone before us. Hence you see this strict legalism on the one hand among some, and the permissiveness of the Sufis among others.

The right way is still the moderate, middle way.

MT - the US-Israeli axis, good question. I think reading Naom Chomsky may throw some light.

Israel was seen as an extention of the West, hence there was initially support all round in Europe as well as in the US. Europe is closer to the ME, and initially there was an Arab or Muslim lobby of the Conservatives who sided with the Muslim landed gentry. The left in the West was pro-Israel then. Nasser came along, and when the CIA failed to recruit him, the US went against the regimes that were "progressive".

Europe had been more leftish, being the birthplace of Marx and home to some very strong socialist movements. It moved further down that road. With the Laila Khaled's hijacking of the plane, the case of the Palestinians came to the frontburner, and gradually the repression and brutality of Israel towards the Palestinians was realised. Hence Western Europe, the population of which was becoming humanitarian, turned pro-Palestinian, although a latent mistrust of Islam and Muslims seems to have remained, and continues to raise its head.

The US was still in the Cold War mindset. The showdown with the USSR (whether nuclear or not) was expected in Europe, so the US mainland would not be affected unless the USSR risked being wiped out too. Europeans had to face that possibility, so they had to be more realistic, and they already had more pronounced left parties.

The US has always needed and created enemies. This fuels its economy, perhaps. With the collapse of the USSR, the US think tanks saw an opportunity to create an Empire. It is interesting to read the policy papers and scenarios being prepared by these think tanks before and during the collapse of the USSR. I don't have the references now, but basically the argument was that the Muslim states that had been absorbed by the USSR should not be allowed to become free, particularly those that had some sort of nuclear facilities.

There has been a cover-up by the US of Israeli activity even if the targets were american. This gives rise to the theory that the Zionist lobby has immense control.

For the moment, the Israeli and the far-right Christian movements in the US have convergent views and interests in the ME.

Your question about "being covered". It depends on the definition of "cover". There are degrees of covering. What I meant was that women should not be assaulted if they are not covered from head to foot. The prophet (saw) was going with a young companion and they saw a woman go by at a distance. I cannot remember correctly, but I think the woman's face was somewhat visible, if not recognisable. The young man kept turning his head towards her, but the prophet held him, and turned it away from her. The conclusion is that here it was the man who was stopped from seeing what wasn't rightful for him to see. Not that the woman was punished for uncovering her face.

yingers74 · 10/08/2005 19:03

PS - appreciate your attempt at trying to promote MC topic, unfortunately I think it is a battle that cannot be won! Ho hum, tis the nature of free debate!

These so called theories and conspiracies about Zionist plots are in my mind a load of rubbish, and simply anti-semitic cr8p! Sorry, dodgy govts all over the world have been supported by the US but it does not lead to such theories springing up. I wonder if I can still fit behind the sofa!

OP posts:
dropinthe · 10/08/2005 19:07

I live in a very MC part of South East London-I went to a mc fair on Sunday-one minute I was dancing to Irish diddly,then to Turkish belly dancing,then to Bangra,then to House music,the list goes on!
It is alive where it wants to be but my head is NOT in the sand!!

monkeytrousers · 10/08/2005 19:23

I tend to agree Yingers. Conspracies abound but they're no more zionist than masonic. (Sorry Pap's )

peachskin · 10/08/2005 19:58

yingers - sorry but your argument is an old chestnut often used by some of my Jewish friends here in London every time they hear me criticise Israel

It also happens to be one of the biggest fallacies in the world.

This is my reply to my Jewish friends who do not like it when I criticise Israel's atrocious human rights record:

CRITICISING the Israeli Govt. and Zionism (a political ideology like that of Communism, Fascism, Maoism, Ghaddafism, or any other "ism") is no different from criticising, say, the French Govt. and Gaulism.

DISAGREEING with the Israeli Govt. and Zionism as an ideology DOES NOT make me anti-Jewish in as much as criticising the French Govt. does not make me anti-French or anti-Catholic.

Note: the word "semitic" includes the Arabs. Arabs and Jews are both ethnically semites. So the word anti-semitic as often used in the media to mean "anti-Jewish" is incorrect.

monkeytrousers · 10/08/2005 20:12

Oh, I didn't know that PS (will add it to the list )

There is an awful lot of mud hurled between the two camps, that?s for sure. I'm not so clued up as you re zionism to comment. There are some tortuous debates about what is anti-semiotic (as in 'anti-Jewish') and what isn't. That itself stifles debate, especially for liberals as they feel they will get ambushed at any moment. Of course, that's part of the strategy.

Papillon · 10/08/2005 20:22

you must need to read more zionist conspiracy theories then MT

have you checked out buzzflash found it from a link you gave me

monkeytrousers · 10/08/2005 20:29

No, I need to read more of whats on my reading list, Paps!

Groan..I just reminded myself!

Papillon · 10/08/2005 20:33

better wean yourself off this place or make it your thesis!

is it not after 8pm dh divorce time

yingers74 · 10/08/2005 20:34

PS - Think you have misunderstood me. I have no probs with people criticising Israel, I do it myself BUT i can't bear this stuff about Zionist world domination.

I just think these theories in particular are grounded in anti-semitism, honestly they have been around for ages, way before critism even began about Israel. I remember one guy at uni(many, many years ago) used to go on about it(otherwise he was pretty logical) and I used to wonder exactly how the holocaust, jews being expelled from spain etc fit into this so called super sophisticated masterplan he kept banging on about. Once again, I am talking specifically about the theories/conspiracies, not about people criticising Israel.

OP posts:
moondog · 10/08/2005 20:37

Yingers, excellent points made at 7:58 this evening.
Peachskin,I don't follow you. I never said (or suggested) that I feel that I or my country is 'therefore superior'. I disagree with much of what the current govt. (I don't vote Labour btw) does,particularly in the mE but fundamentally it is a good and decent place to live. Millions of others patently think so too, including many of those from the countries under discussion.

PD,the point about it being 'incumbent on both men and women to dress modestly' doesn't wash with me. Just returned form a night out to celebrate the wedding anniversary of my dh's colleagues. Mixed group of people-Muslims,Christians,atheists, all sorts.It is presntly about 34 C (night time.) My dh's most religious colleague was very comfortable in light trousers and a thin short sleeved shirt. His dw and dd were meanwhile sweltering in long buttoned coat,thick headscarf,thick tights,big shoes.
He wasn't even going to introduce them until the woman whose aprty it was went to him and insisted.

moondog · 10/08/2005 20:38

(PS sorry,not Yingers.)

monkeytrousers · 10/08/2005 20:38

Yup. I'm off!

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