is multi-culturalism dead?

[yingers74]

Am not any good at doing links but won't try. Have read a lot of articles including the original (before the bombs) by Trevor Philips(I think, could be wrong) who thought the multi-cultural model had failed. What do people think?

Glad you posted that point about the women at the party moondog - I feel there has been alot of glaze applied to the discussion of the hijab on this thread.

I know Peachskin its about multi-culturalism! (I am teasing but feeling slightly ´moderated´!)

Note: the word "semitic" includes the Arabs. Arabs and Jews are both ethnically semites.

yes, you are right about this which makes the whole thing even more tragic. If only I possessed a magic wand.........sorry the over optimistic side of me is coming out again.

Note: the word "semitic" includes the Arabs. Arabs and Jews are both ethnically semites.

yes, you are right about this which makes the whole thing even more tragic. If only I possessed a magic wand.........sorry the over optimistic side of me is coming out again.

moondog - LOL I did wonder as firstly was reading a book about a bear to my dd and secondly 'excellent points?', I don't do them esp as my own opinions change minute to minute, I am the ultimate swayer!

Papillon,glad you thought it relevant....I feel these threads can get so obtuse and show offy (Look how many clever books I've read sort-of-thing.)

I am intersted in the practicalities of living under a religious/political code.
Most people couldn't care less about the learned rhetorical comments made by PD I'm afraid.....

yingers!

Real life is VERY relevant Moondog - too much theory makes us lose perspective. Though we all have a bias depending on our beliefs and culture.

It is so difficult to really comprehend attitudes and cultures other than our own, when we read them in newspapers and see them on TV. I do like the internet because news about life and people can be found on blogs, CNN, MN and yes, even ´conspiracy´ sites.

I will be reading more from Zainab Salbi who was born in Iraq and worked with alot of women in current and post conflict countries
www.womenforwomen.org/nrzainbio.html

Moondog - yes, aren't we all pathetic show offs pointing out serious errors in other people's logic ?

I doubt any one from the European Continent (where the word "intellectual" is not a dirty word unlike here in good old Britain) would have made the same comment re. reading books.

The country you are from (you are Welsh aren't you ?) is not that far away from the country I am from, England !

I am totally and utterly disgusted by the rise of Islamophobia and always will be in as much as I am disgusted by Fascism of any sort.

If people choose to make Muslims or those from Muslim countries look like primitive fools, who can't accept the concept of democracy, are cowards because they can't stand up for what they believe, etc. simply on the basis of their ignorance of Muslim countries then I feel its'only fair that someone should provide a more balanced view based on historical facts.

Moondog - what is you view of women living in Muslim countries ? Your steretype of the woman with her husband at the party makes it sound like they are silent fools ?? Do you know any women who are from the Muslim world who are intellectuals ??

My view of the Muslim women I know is very different to the one you portray. I am talking personal experience here, nothing from a book !!

Oh lighten up Peachskin!
I can rant for Wales (hence choice of French/Philosophy as a first degree.)
PD asks ludicrously broad rhetorical questions which are not really answerable,merely designed to dazzle and perplex.It is pointless to do the same back as we all get mired down.

Do I know any Muslim female intellectuals. Errr,yes,quite afew actually. My dh works alongside some pretty powerful women who are sociologists at the local uni among many more.
I was not stereotyping Muslim women,merely giving a concrete example of the things I see daily.

I have a devout Muslim friend from this part of the world who will be returning home to the UK to be a guest in my home for a month.

It's not all theory with me.My parents have lived in the ME for 17 years and I have lived all over the world too.

MD, does a true Welshman/woman always have the capacity to rant? I remember a Welsh teacher we had at secondary school (I had a major crush on her actually ) who used to "go off on one" frequently and even used to joke at times that she would "get off her Welsh pulpit" sometimes! We think of the Irish as having the gift of the gab so what is it with the Welsh?

Sorry, totally irrelevant to this thread, but maybe not - it is about multi-culturalism after all.

lm,not always but mostly!
Most of my friends seem to be ranters or at least ranters-in-training...

So where does that characteristic come from?

Correcting the countless myths that exist about us I reckon!

Awww the chip is alive and kicking I see!

Yeah,lm. Just for you.

Glad you can laugh with me! It's not looking so healthy now! (the chip)

right back,baby!

Zionism, and world domination!

did I say that?

What I said was that a strong link exists between Zionism and the US policies. I did not mention the neo-cons and their policy think tanks. I thought that was sufficiently well-known to the readers of Guardian.

MD, I see that you are interested in the practical problems of living in places where cultural practices and traditions are strictly enforced in the name of religion. That is indeed a big problem, but there is progress being made. Your attitude of bashing Islam which actually came to free people, does not help. It only re-inforces the mindset where people try to stick to their cultural background as a defence against the attack on their faith.

The deobandi school of thought, which has given rise to the Talebaan, came about as one of the reactions to the British occupation of India.

My questions are broad and general which cannot be answered!

My questions are designed to induce deeper thinking for which I guess many do not have time, and which will indeed make people uncomfortable, because they challenge the basic premises on which the dominant civilisation is based.

Yingers, here is an article on dissatisfaction by British Muslim Youth:

www.islamonline.net/English/In_Depth/ViolenceCausesAlternatives/Articles/topic01/2005/08/01.shtml

No peacedove your views are not designed to promote deeper thinking because your comments show you don't consider any viewpoint but your own. To say that Blair might actually have considered what he did carefully is not to make him a saint but to say that the man is human. You prefer to see demons everywhere. You also wish to constantly blame others. Yes there was opposition to Sadam from the people he murdered - but the muslim world generally was content to do nothing. Much easier to constantly chant about the CIA than to think about your prejudices.

If you want to avoid any temptation because your faith is so weak you cannot resist a drink then go to live in a country under sharia law - there are several to chose from. But you want the benefits of life in this country without its freedom. Remove the freedom and those benefits will not exist.

Peachskin Christians have different views about why Christ's mesage appears to vary from the Old Testament. Personally I see God's message corrupted by fallible humans seeking power. Hence Paul corrupted Christainity and the imams have corrupted the message from Muhammed.

tatt - I am happy for you that you have a strong Christian faith. I don't agree with Peacedove's comments (presented as fact on this thread) on many issues, but I still respect her faith in her God.

But as I have said further down in this thread your comments (misleadingly presented as fact) that there was NO OPPOSITION TO SADDAM is total and utter rubbish ! Thousands of Iraqi Kurds, Shias, Iranians (1 mil. in fact), Kuwaitis, etc. died opposing Saddam.

I have seen thousands of graves of young Iranian soldiers who died during the Iraq-Iran War after Saddam invaded that country. I did not enjoy the experinece. Just to give you another fact. The US and Britain supported and funded Saddam throughout the Iran-Iraq War. In fact the West has always been very generous in helping Muslims kill other Muslims.

Let's be VERY clear. The Iraqi people never asked the US or Britain to invade Iraq and to set them free !!

Just because people are helpless under a particular regime beacuse its brutality makes it difficult for them to revolt and change the sytem does not mean thet there is no opposition and that there is absolute silence. How do you account for the hungar striking Iranian Journalist ?? There are hundreds of others like him throughout the Muslim world.

tatt- if you had some familiarity with world history perhaps you could understand this. You won't find all your answers to the world's problems in the Bible (or any other spiritual text for that matter).

Moondog - you have inadvertantly raised an interesting point. Many Muslims from different countries live in the UK. We accuse them of a deep misunderstanding and even hatred of British and Western culture. Yet many Brits do exactly that when they live in Muslim countries as expats. I accept that you have alot of personal experince with all things Middle Eastern, but despite that, your comments both here and on other threads (in particular you went on and on on one thread about 72 virgins as though that is the ONLY topic of importance to a Muslim man) show a deep lack of understanding of Turkey.

I lived with a prominet English academic for many years. He was a fluent Turkish and Arabic speaker and a Middle East expert. His impression of living in Turkey was very very different to the one that you and your husband seem to have (I base this comment on your own descriptions of life in Turkey).

I am afraid some people in this country do nothing with their time other than promote myths about other cultures, whether that be the Welsh or Muslim countries !!

The difference is that contempt for the Welsh does not these days lead to an invasion of their land and the loss of innocent life, which is why people like me don't take verbal abuse against the Welsh very seriously !!! Contempt for Muslims on the other hand does lead to atrocities against them, which is what some of us are trying to prevent.

my turn to correct a gender anomoly PD is male

So many ways to view another culture isn´t threre! What seems to be apparent and consistent is that there are varing degrees of success of the individual within all cultures. Wall flowers and extroverts everywhere.

Peachskin there are so many political facts that are swept away from the public eye. It seems more evident that multi-cultural issues are of little concern on the mainstream economic/political plateau.

As afew people have mentioned their newspaper of choose I give my favourite online ´newspaper´
www.copvcia.com/ftw.shtml or this

Sorry peacedove - most people on this thread seem to be women - I thought you were too !

Tatt...6:15am. Brilliant post!
You are so right about Peace Dove considering no point but his own...That's why I find him so irritating. Yes, and I concur with your suggestion that if temptation must be kept at arm's length,what kind of strength of faith does one possess? PD has written in disturbingly clear detail about the bare bellied 'models' (que???) he encounters in everyday life.

Islam bashing?? Me? Hardly PD. It suits your cause to place us in our camps of islamaphobes and nutter feminists but it is inaccurate and simplistic. As I have said before,many aspects of Islam are intelligible and admirable to those of other faiths. treatment of women does not however fall into this category for many of us.
At leastyou acknowledge that there are 'practical problems' of living in a place where religious traditions are enforced.
We agree on something!

Peachskin,I never claimed to 'understand' Turkey? How could I in less than a year of p/t living? I have posted extensively on other parts of MN about the joys of living here-the courtesy and warmth of the people,the fabulous food,geography,language (I have a Turkish lesson every day.),architecture,culture. I do however see the limitations and weaknesses within its borders,and amhappy to point them out.

Yes,foreigners can be discourteous about their host countries wherever they live. I have known people who have spent decades in Saudi and know nothing about it. Arguably,many Arabs do however make it difficult for their expatriate workers to get to know them,even if they want to.My mother has met socially with one Saudi woman in 17 years of living there (much to her disappointment.)
My father has done better than this,being a man and one who speaks competent Arabic.
SA is however quick to eject those who do not abide by their code of conduct.

The Welsh issue is an aside,bit it may interest you to know that what is currently happening in Wales (influx of non Welsh speakers to rural areas) is quite accurately classified as genocide as defined by the UN. Makes you think,eh?

Apologies for not having your impeccable credentials (dazzling polyglot ex partner included) but I do have a fair idea. My dh worked in Iraq too......

papillon - I agree that multiculturalism and race relations (as indeed foreign policy and international relations) are a "dead horse" topic to the average person.

That does not mean that the rest of us should not discuss it, promote it or indeed celebrate it !

I am no where near being a hippy, tree-hugiing chick sort. However, as a lawyer I have a passion for justice and "the truth" and wish to see human rights abuses everywhere exposed and erradicated. That is my personal reason for being interested in multiculturalism.

If I may do another cliche: ignorance breeds prejudice.

Gosh,you're so noble PS.

(We are not worthy,we are not worthy....)