Man shot dead in Stockwell unconnected to terror inquiry

[QueenOfQuotes]

Just seen a ticker on the BBC website saying that

And the tube driver - he got a gun held to his head as he was fleeing the scene - they didn't shoot him either. MAYBE that is because he too did as he was told.

From the BBC website:

but why was he running away if he was innocent? the facts haven't been revealed yet (if they ever will be). London is on a state of high alert - the security forces are trying to protect us, and risk their lives doing so. I am sad if an innocent man has been killed but really don't see what else they could have done, given that they thought he was a suicide bomber.

JanH, I wouldn't take that as complete gospal just yet if if I were you, no offence WK, but over the past couple of weeks we have heard so many different things that have not been the case at all. There was no mention of buses on the BBC coverage.

Of course if he did then the plot really does thicken.

scuba, it has been confirmed that he was South American (according to news sources) and some of those chasing him were plain clothes (although there were some uniformed officers)

dinny, he is described as being of "South American" appearance. Drugs maybe?

I can see it from both viewpoints and I think the Police were damned if they did and damned if they didn't.

I saw on last night's news about the shooting marking a new policy - it's the same as the Israeli Army use with suicide bombers. If someone is a suicide bomber they can detonate the bomb in less than a second. A warning shot is no use: they can still detonate the bomb. A shot to injure is no use: in the torso is likely to detonate the bomb, a shot to anywhere else but the head still gives them time to detonate the bomb. This is why they shoot in the head - to kill. Five shots because apparently people have survived with three.

If any of the possible scenarios people have described are true: he was deaf; he didn't speak English; he didn't know they were Police; he had some other reason to run (illegal immigrant, drugs, whatever) then yes it is absolutely tragic.

But the Police there had to make a split second decision. He came out of a house which was under surveillance after the bombings, he could have been another suicide bomber, he didn't stop when warned, he went on to a tube train. They had to make that decision there and then. I couldn't do it. I can't imagine how they must feel. But if he had had a bomb and they had hesitated - and he had detonated it and killed x number of people - we would be baying for blood at how Police had watched a suspected suicide bomber board a train and done nothing.

They had to make an awful, split second decision and they made it. None of us would want to be in that position, would we? It's terribly, terribly sad and I feel for his family and whoever pulled the trigger.

There are said to be severe shortages in the intelligence community at teh present time. I read somewhere that there were only 2 active teams available for surveillance in MI5 at the present time and that operatives from MI6 had to be recalled from overseas duty to provide support following 7/7.

They have had a big recruitment campaign but it will be some time before the new operatives are fully trained and ready for front line duty.

As such the underinvestment of the past few years in intelligence operatives, have cost this country highly in recent weeks.

"Do you seriously think that someone would run away when confronted with men with guns if they had nothing to hide."

From what I understand they were plain clothed policeman.

Can I ask something (to any of you)

If you were walking down the street, and were approached by a group of men with guns, dressed in 'plain clothes', would you stand and do as they wanted - or would you run like hell????

Lets not forget that already there have been attacks on Mosques, a MN'er posted the other day to say a friend of her DH's (I think it was) was attacked because someone thought he was muslim and had a bomb in his lunch box......what's to say this man didn't think he was about to become a victim of vigilantes who believe that all asians are muslims, and all muslims are terrorists????

Just because someone says they're police doesn't mean they ARE police.

Good, thoughtful, post, moo - thank you.

So very sad, this whole situation.

Good post, moo.

Great post Moo.

I wasn't meaning to be facetious, Mrs D, I do think all of us would feel ungrateful if it were our relative. But I still think we know too little about it to make any hasty judgements. And that's why questions have to be asked.

yes I totally agree soapbox

also, I truly think they did not believe that any bombers would be British born and brought up. They had a fixation with foreigners.

I always keep an eye on MI5 and MI6 recruitment and I'm always astonished at how many people they need (especially in things like surveillance, language skills etc.)

marthamoo, good post. Exactly what I have been trying to say, but not so succinctly.

Moo - in part I agree with what you say. However, the surveillance of a suspect is normally a long drawn out process, and making sure you are in hot pursuit of the right person is pretty important.

I agree though that the officers at the end of this sad event will end up bearing the blame for shortfalls in the surveillance teams ability to identify the suspect properly.

Of course - I may be making assumptions and as such will wait until a fuller story emerges!!

Flossam, I meant that I can be shot by the police in this highly charged atmosphere where the police are trying to protect everyone so they have a right to suspect people coming out from the vicinity of a place under surveillance, etc. etc.

You get my drift.

Look you are all normally very sensible, and I do not want my posts to look extreme , but don't you see that we must question and check the tendency to use firearms. Or this society will go the way od several others we are familiar with.

It seems these armed forces are stroppy folks and have threatened before and will threaten again to down arms. Then we will have to rely on MI5 or SAS to get to scenes like this if a response is needed. That could cost further lives.

It's not that I'm not questioning, I have questioned DP on this earlier, and the answers I get from him are reasonable. The Met do not behave in a racist manner, they are come down on by their superiors like a tonne of bricks if even a hint of this is shown. Unfortunately, as in all jobs, you can never account for all personal opinions. Therefore I would argue that the Met is not racist.

We now know that in some way this was a terrible tragedy and that it should never have happened. But as someone has already said, hindsight is a wonderful thing. The whole police can not be at fault for the actions of these officers who do, from what limited knowledge, appear to have been under great pressure. Other than that the police have behaved pretty superbly when you consider how stretched they must be will all this activity. One of DP's friends has a baby only a couple of months old. He has hardly been home at all in recent weeks. I am lucky that DP does not work that centrally, otherwise I would find it very hard to ever stop worrying.

If I do seem too angry about all this please remember that I know in detail the horrific way in which some of the people from 7/7 were permanently injured. And it is incredibly sad.

I hope the officers don't end up being scapegoats.

What moo said.

Flossam I have a friend who is a policman who works in Central London and has had a baby recently - I wonder if it's the same one?

So do I He works in anti-terrorist squad, so his wife has barely seen him.

It might be a good post (thankyou) but I still want to weep when I think of everything that has happened in London and the damage this is doing to all of us. I don't think there is anything 'right' or 'good' about any of it Just people trying to do their best in impossible, unprecedented circumstances.

Babe's name begins with c - lives near one of stations affected on 7/7...?

Yes! Baby born in Feb?

Flossam - I get the impression that there's an awful lot we still don't know. Ignorance is bliss, as they say.
I guess those who work centrally must have a better idea and therefore may be even more afraid. My heart goes out to those who have that knowledge, it must be awful.