Catholic church - time to call it a day?

[Chil1234]

I truly hope that the latest scandals and accusations have hit the catholic church hard or preferably killed it stone dead. If it were isolated incidents or if the problems had been handled considerately, it might be put down to the vagiaries of life or the human condition. If other religious organisations had the same breadth of complaints one might make a faith connection. But it isn't the case.

The catholic church's position of absolute authority, of 'doing God's work', and expecting unthinking obedience, has resulted in apalling corruption and terrible abuse..... from the Magdalen Laundries, the Holly Mount Orphanage, the organisations that shipped children off to terrible conditions in Australia to the cover-ups surrounding abusive priests today. People in my own family have been direct victims of 'pastoral care', having their lives ruined when they most needed help. It's not enough to say that the church does a lot of good work or that there are good people in the organisation... that does not compensate for the instutionalised megalomania and abuse of privilege.

When the Pope visits I, for one, will not be there to greet him. Shame on the lot of them

Dittany lay off the vino for two secs and calm down, why don't you read some of the accounts from Salem. Women are capable of pure evil in just the same way as men and Christ! my wink was a an ironic nod to the women of Mnet who understand humour. A lot of the women in the Church colluded to cover up the wrong doings of the Male Clergy. Have you read any of the accounts from the victims at the Magdalen Orphanages many suffered horrendous physical and emotional abuse at the hands of WOMEN amazing really! And as a woman that is the first time I have ever been accused of misogny. Where was my lack of sympathy for the accused women burned as witches? Amazingly I have the same level of sympathy for the many men burned as warlocks too. You comments deserve a whole pack of jammie d@s so here you go! [biscuit[
your arguments are horribly unbalanced!

Oh and Dittany it was you yourself who said you"couldn't be bothered to read half of this thread". Speaks volumes really, if you are going to engage in a debate perhaps you should get all the views, it might redress your lack of balance. Ooh look I've said it again balance. balance balance balance and more bloody balance. ( Remember to sweep up your biscuit crumbs!)

Mother Teresa was not quite as fabulous a person as popular mythology makes out Bernadette. She was highly criticised by a number of reputable members of the medical profession for allowing people to die because she was so keen on saving their souls

Right will scroll back and check and I certainly haven't denier I am a proud accuser of our Church You also said that ther was a distinct contrast between Ratzinger and Woytila (the last pope) because Woytila was an anti Nazi and helped escaping Jews. Well of late there have been differing accounts about his role in the war. And one of the more prevalent is that he actually kept out of trouble and kept his head down. Do you not think that the Vatican Press Office were capable of "spinning" and tweaking his profile to boost his image at a torrid time for the Church, I am sorry, he was just as right wing hardline and especially unwilling to reform as Ratzinger and if you want to chuck the mysoginist label throw it in their direction. I suspect old Pope JP did his fair share of cover up in his day. I am perfectly willing to acknowledge the cancer in my Church and stand up and fight it thanks .[scrolls back thread]

Have scrolled back and I apologise saw that you were quoting Dumbledore who said she couldn't be fagged to read the thread. So for that I am sorry Dittany

I am not Catholic (more Society of Friends I reckon) but DH is and we occasionally go to local Mass. The priest there has publicly (in the newspaper and from the pulpit) denounced the abuse and the officials within the church who allowed them to continue. He has also raised funds for wells in Africa, shelter for the homeless, etc, etc, etc, basically any charity you can name. He's lovely. He takes the time to listen to anyone and everyone and is always there to help in any way he can. Everyone adores him and thinks he's a wonderful priest. (That being said, if he ever touched my child or any other,there wouldn't be any amount of money or threats in the world that could buy my silence.)

I don't know the point of my long, rather rambling message here, but all I can say is some priests are lovely. I know people who work tirelessly for the poor and stand up every chance they get for the voiceless, and they do it because of the Catholic Church. The abusers are horrible and monstrous and I can't wrap my mind around what they've done and how they were allowed to continue, but...the Catholics are not all bad, and I think it would be sad indeed for every trace of the church to be wiped off the face of the planet.

@Ladybiscuit I saw the Donal Macintyre report and I agree things strated going wrong.With MT and I did not agree with the rubbish she spoke about abortion. I guess at least she tried to do something for these orphans of "untouchables" she found begging in the street. I guess she was more "hands on" with poor relief than any Pope.

Well said CheerfulYank not everyone is rotten, there is a Jesuit priest Father Baldini who has lived and worked with the Sambora tribe in Kenya for 30 years he has done much to improve their access to Medical Care and access to schools. But he has not tried to convert them, he has been proactive in educating them about female circumscion and he is a much loved figure as he fights to get their voice heard in an increasingly country.

educating them re: the perils of female circumsiscion is what I meant to say!

"you can't deny the catholic church's leading role in the destruction of women as witches. Why are you trying to distract from that?" Yes, like most aspects of history, it can indeed be debated, and possibly denied. That the Catholic Church had a 'leading role' in the destruction of women as witches is a question up for grabs. The anti-witch crusades that waxed and waned throughout Europe from medieval times up to the 1800s were conducted by all denominations. Misogyny knows no bounds nor does it recognise borders. All churches were male-led and dominated institutions back in the witch-burning days. Some (Catholic Church being a prime example, Islam, all branches, another) still are. But until very, very recently, 'church' meant an institution controlled by men.

I personally suspect that Poland will be the next paedophiliac can of worms that opens up -- there have already been scandals involving priests and bishops accused of collaboration with the secret police under communism, and I think more will follow as Polish Catholicism loses its fortress mentality.

Dittany, I hope you're not trying to excuse the conduct of nuns who ran the Magdalene Laundries and orphanages in Ireland, and ruined the lives of the unfortunate children and young women consigned to their 'care' therein, just because they were women working in a male-dominated organisation, following a male script. Some of those women would have been right at home in the Nazi death camps as guards.

And no, of course 'two wrongs make a right' is not Catholic doctrine. It's playground-talk.

So you still think with same level of equality that exists 21st century it would be a much better place, it might be a start
but I still think the rot would have been there. Harriet Harman thinks the Banking crisis might have been less serious if there had been more women taking leading rolls. it would be fairer and more equal, and men may tend to take more risks than women but women are no less greedy or motivated by money. Do you hate all men or just Catholic Clergy?

That should read same level of equality in 21st century Britain.

Also Dittany now that we have all gone off tangent I just would like to know if you would be so vociferous in a thread about Islam or Judaism etc I agree with you about the Catholic Church being steeped in Mysogyny
but like another poster said I am not sure if we should all be the easy target!

But why bring up the Catholic Church's role in witch-burning as if they were the only group involved? I don't think you thought that particular crime against women all the way through. It was not primarily a Catholic Church vs. women crime. Nor was there any attempt to ever hide it, not at the time or afterwards. It wasn't a part of any cover-up culture.

I disagree that the Catholic Church is built on misogyny, that hatred of women is its foundation. That is a very broad overstatement of your case although I agree a degree of undiluted misogyny exists in the institutional church. It is undeniable that women's role in the institutional Catholic Church remains peripheral despite Vatican II and Pope John Paul II's official Church apology to women. The Church has a lot of unpalatable history to face facing it has been accelerated in the last 10 years or so, and a lot hinges on how it deals with the challenge now in progress. I think it was John Paul II who said, "An excuse is worse and more terrible than a lie, for an excuse is a lie guarded." Hope they take that to heart and apply it to the current situation. Lies guarded...

I worry I will be shot down in flames if I try to point out that up to very recently misogyny was pretty much one of the mainstays of general western culture (I can't speak about other cultures) shared equally by all churches and denominations, and even by those who professed no religious allegiance at all. Feminism has made inroads into public consciousness only relatively recently, and huge challenges remain to be overcome.

'Women have to submit and participate to survive.' Submission and participation with varying degrees of spiritual/intellectual/emotional engagement are what churches in general offer to all. In the case of the Catholic Church, the idea of eternal damnation has always been there -- there are some protestant denominations that focus on salvation vs. damnation too, but the RC Church also teaches that humans are endowed with free will. Ultimately it's up to you to do what you see fit in your own life, with the caveat that you'll answer for your choices.

In Ireland, in the case of the horrific orphanages and the Magdalene Laundries, there was an overlay of class to the Church's treatment of young women and children. (Nuala O Faolain in her first autobiographical book Are You Somebody? describes Catholic Ireland and the question of class very well). My grandfather stood up and marched his entire family out of the parish church one sunday during a pro-Fascist sermon in the 30s (Grandad hated Fascists), and carried on a running feud with the local PP, whom he hated, but never feared repercussions. Reason? -- money. And he was far better educated than the priest.

Again -- 'submit and participate to survive.' This allows no acknowledgement of the religious/spiritual experience of willing participants who see their faith as a journey, not as a sign-on-the-dotted-line, once-off thing. It is also true of the experience of women in the wider world, to a large extent, a world which is dominated by men, with which women (and to some extent non-alpha males) still must make their peace however they can.

"I have supported my diocese in carrying through measures that will prevent the abuse and cover-up ever happening again. And this has included financial support(which I can ill afford) for training lay people and clergy in child protection."

Abride - that is in itself outrageous. You mean that the Church is asking for financial contributions from church goers to pay for Child Protection training????

The Church is also asking it's parishioners for contributions towards the compensation payments for historical abuse.

Bernadette.....so you want the Pope to quit?

I cannot believe they are asking for the faithful to contribute to clean up their mess. The more I hear, the more rotten the Church is