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killers of james bulger should not have been prosecuted??

270 replies

pregnochicklol · 14/03/2010 07:11

Oh okay, because they're kids they should just be left to be a danger to everyone else?

Is this woman out of her mind?
Prison isn't just about punishment, it's about protecting others!

And I don't believe for one second that they didn't know it was wrong.
When I was a kid a bully (ring leader) tried to strangle my little sister, she was evil. But even her friends (aged around 7-9) realised her behaviour wasn't right made her release her. NORMAL Kids DO know what's right.

OP posts:
wannaBe · 14/03/2010 20:30

?Why does it matter whther or not I'm to be taken seriously as a person?? Because if you want to debate on a serious subject then you need to be able to put across a serious view if you want people to take your opinions on board and potentially agree with them.

?who cares if I say 'lol' a lot.? This is not a subject worth ?lol? ing about though is it? How can you expect this to be a serious discussion (and whatever your feelings about confrontation, a discussion about the murder of a child by two children can only ever be a serious discussion) when you are constantly saying ?lol? at every turn and quoting Disney as your reference.

?And what has where I live got to do with it?? well, given you are, I am assuming, from the US, where either of these children is irrelevant to the safety of your children, and your country has far more of its own issues to deal with than the whereabouts of two blokes out on licence. Would you expect someone from the UK to start opinionating over your country?s laws, and believe me there are far more of them to opinionate about, the death penalty and the potential change in the law in Chicago to allow people to openly carry guns and for children to be allowed to take them to school being ust two of them.

?Jon Venables was NOT an abused child. He was violent and sadistic,? and did his parents seek help for that prior to him committing this crime? Because if not then he might just as well have been an abused child. Had his parents saught help wrt his violence prior to this incident then perhaps he would have got help sooner and this would never have happened. Whether he was physically abused or not, the indicators would hve been there before it got to this level, and yet no-one did anything.

?Well it's a shame she didn't stop for one second to think how her compassionate, enlightened view of James Bulger's slaugher as 'unpleasant' might sound
to his poor mother, who is serving her own life sentence.? The fact that there is still a victim to this crime does not make an opinion invalid or unmentionable. She has a right to voice the opinion that these two boys were too young to have been tried in an adult court. Never has she said they shouldn?t have been held to account,just that they shouldn?t have been prosecuted as adults, and she is absolutely right.

?She should be sacked immediately.? No she shouldn?t. James bulger's parents (and why is it that most people are only thinking of his mother here?) are going through hell over this, and this is tbh not helped by the fact that the media probably camp outside their front doors for comment every time this subject is raised. However we cannot sensor potentially valid debate based on the upset caused to one person. Because we can never always get it right, and perhaps if there is a next time then we can learn from mistakes potentially made the last time.

LadyBiscuit · 14/03/2010 20:30

me too smallorange

Lulumaam · 14/03/2010 20:31

amen to that wannabe.

and thank you besom

pregnochicklol · 14/03/2010 20:50

wannabe the first three seem to be in response to me.
OK I get your first one, I'm just used to debating anonymously online.
I live in Britain and I'm British.
I've spent several hours on here today and have laughed at points in the thread, not loled at the subject though, I agree, nothing funny there x

OP posts:
pregnochicklol · 14/03/2010 20:51

wannabe the first three seem to be in response to me.
OK I get your first one, I'm just used to debating anonymously online.
I live in Britain and I'm British.
I've spent several hours on here today and have laughed at points in the thread, not loled at the subject though, I agree, nothing funny there x

OP posts:
pregnochicklol · 14/03/2010 20:55

AshleyFanjo

Great post, completely agree

OP posts:
Besom · 14/03/2010 21:10

Pregnochick - you have stayed on this thread and argued your point which I am quite impressed with.

I think you've actually been treated very gently for Mumsnet, though.

pregnochicklol · 14/03/2010 21:44

Oh thanks, yeah.
I like mumsnet as people do seem a bit kinder and mature, maybe because we're mummies :-D

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Besom · 14/03/2010 22:02

Impressed with the staying on the thread, not impressed with the actual point - you know that though

pregnochicklol · 14/03/2010 22:57

Doh, just as we leave it on a good note, you gotta make it clear youre 'unimpressed by my point', whichever point that may be..

I think AhleyFanjo sums it all up in her last post anyway.

So I'm out and gone, Thanks everyone for contributing your thoughts xx

OP posts:
Liberation · 14/03/2010 23:00

What changes should be made if those involved and others aren't made to understand the full implications of their actions?...Who is to be brought to justice, what changes do we want?? What about the video gaming lisensers, the media, for their constant de-sensitising of reality dramatically reducing our childrens/peoples 'norms and values', or is it the education system, the legal system, should we put everyone through rigorous parenting classes? Could other institutions i.e the church have done more???

Olifin · 14/03/2010 23:02

Blimey Ashleyfanjo I was wondering how long it would be before someone used the word 'monsters' to describe those two boys.

Isn't it so easy to declare a child to be evil/monstrous/murderous etc.... without actually thinking about the individual set of circumstances that led to this tragedy. Yes, they were monsters; string 'em up/lock 'em up and throw up the key etc. blah blah blah... So easy, isn't it?!

No-one is suggesting that it's ok for children from dysfunctional families to murder other children. No-one is suggesting that they don't feel the utmost sympathy for the family of Jamie Bulger who have experienced every family's worst nightmare. What people are (sensibly) suggesting is that:

a) Perhaps there is more that we, as a society, can do to help prevent such atrocities happening.

b) Perhaps these two children should not have been tried in an adult court, at the age of 10

As you rightly say, not all children from abusive/violent backgrounds grow up to become murderers. (thank goodness). Why is it that some children perpetuate the cycle of abuse and violence while others don't? If you're not even interested in the answer to that question then you really aren't thinking about this at all.

Besom · 14/03/2010 23:11

Pregnachick - I thought we were leaving it on a good point?

intercoursethepenguin · 14/03/2010 23:16

Olifin, we , as a society can stop these monsters murdering decent people by locking them up up for life,

TiggyD · 14/03/2010 23:27

we would need to identify children who will go on to kill and lock them up for life when they're 9. Fancy doing that for a living?

Olifin · 14/03/2010 23:32

Thanks for that intercourse You seem to have used the word 'monsters' to be deliberately inflammatory. Nice

To take Tiggy's idea one step further...perhaps we can identify these monsters when they are still in the womb and terminate them then. Or better still, identify parents who are likely to give birth to monsters and sterilise them.

Yes, I'm being facetious now but I'm getting really bored of repeating myself and stating the bleedin obvious.

Hides thread.

pregnochicklol · 15/03/2010 07:52

I'm not sure people becoming evil can be prevented.
As I've said I've known truly evil people.
Married to one I had to 'escape'.

What I have realised is that it's not necessarily the kids who come from council estates with messy housing, parents smoking weed, social workers constantly there.
Actually THOSE children tend to turn out albeit misguided, but quite good at heart.

Two people whom I've known who have true evilness in them, complete lack of empathy, were pretty middle class, and LOOKED quite good to the outside, the type of family social workers actually wouldn't get involved with, because they have good jobs, immaculate houses, etc etc
So they don't seem to be investigated for cruelty towards their children.
Their kids can be well spoken and rehearsed in what to say.
The REAL abuse, actually attacking a child mentally and physically (as opposed to letting them wear dirty cloths and look scruffy) is actually well hidden, and so hard to detect.
Kids don't trun into psychopaths from having 'lazy, dirty, seemingly uncaring' parents.
I think they can turn into psychopaths from having the type of parent whom you think looks good, but they hurt their children, it's just very hidden.

OP posts:
TheLadyEvenstar · 15/03/2010 08:40

Would you be accepting of Ian Huntly being given a new identity if he was released from prison?

If not why? HE commited an Adult crime just as these 2 did. they did not commit a crime common of CHILDREN, shop lifting, drawing on a wall etc they killed a defenseless little boy, someone who could not fight back, they threw bricks at him, when he started bleeding they put bricks on his head and face, he had still been alive at that point, they KNEW he could have lived if they had got help but carried on regardless filling his mouth with batteries, pulling his trousers and pants down playing with his penis and inserting batteries up his bum, along with other things they did to that baby.

Now I was 18 at the time it happened and my feelings have not changed at all over the years except now as the mum of a 2yr old it sickens me more than it did then. I feel and felt they should have been locked up for the rest of their lives. Just as any adult who commited a crime such as this would have been.

What people seem to be unable to get past is the fact that they were 10 at the time of the crime. Yes they were BUT they were insightful enough to know what they were doing would in the very least hurt someone smaller than them, They were old enough to try and hide his body under bricks, they were old enough to place his body on train tracks in a hope that a train would destroy any evidence of who he was and what they had done.

Should they have been tried as adults - yes imo they should they have no more compassion from me than Ian Huntley which totals ZERO

StewieGriffinsMom · 15/03/2010 08:53

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CoteDAzur · 15/03/2010 08:55

at this thread.

Yes, a set of circumstances lead to each crime. That doesn't excuse the criminals.

Once a crime has been committed and the society sees that that person is capable of that crime, it is not an entirely unnatural response to wish him separated from the rest of society.

Whatever has damaged James Bulger's killers is all very sad, and it's all great that the justice system has treated them gentler than it would if they had been a few years older, but the real question is whether or not they can ever be "normal" - i.e. feel pity, compassion, protect the weak, etc.

Yes, society at large has a duty to underage criminals and should protect them from the full force of the consequences of their crimes, but I'm puzzled by the anonymity awarded to them. How would you like to be Venables' girlfriend and have a baby with him?

CoteDAzur · 15/03/2010 09:03

Surely these killers were released with the understanding that their rehabilitation was successful, and that they were not a danger to children (or adults) anymore.

If Venables committed a crime involving children, he was not successfully rehabilitated and is a danger to society. If found guilty, he should not just serve the sentence associated with this last crime but kept securely away from society to play scrabble and weave baskets in a secure hospital.

expatinscotland · 15/03/2010 09:04

'well, given you are, I am assuming, from the US, where either of these children is irrelevant to the safety of your children, and your country has far more of its own issues to deal with than the whereabouts of two blokes out on licence.'

Why assume a person is from the US if they hold views different from yours? I find that insulting and offensive.

I don't agree with pregno's stance, but you're deluded if you think her views are only held by Americans - a quick easy Google search demonstrates that plenty of British born, British people agree with her completley.

TheLadyEvenstar · 15/03/2010 09:09

I have not read any evidence of abuse over the years, i have read the venebles watched karate films, rocky films and horror films. I have read that his mother chastised him and had as tight a rein on him as possible but he skipped school when he entered his third school and met thompson. venebles displayed violent behaviour from the age of 7, and attempted to strangle a child in class.

Another thing that I find strange if his upbringing is the cause then why did his older brother and younger sister, both with developmental problems, not turn out the same way? They were all brought up in the same home by the same people in the same why yet they have not been seen to kill a baby who could not even tell them his name but could only cry for his mummy.

TheLadyEvenstar · 15/03/2010 09:11

Venables is not going to go to court this time though is he, he is going to be left for the parole board to decide his fate and could face up to 10yrs in prison without trial - why? - Oh yes to protect him and keep him safe.

StewieGriffinsMom · 15/03/2010 09:12

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