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The Pope is coming to UK to campaign against equality: Does this make him a respectable leader of faith or a bigot?

821 replies

Strix · 02/02/2010 08:43

What do you think?

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8492597.stm

OP posts:
BethNoireNewNameForPeachy · 07/02/2010 22:54

'and while you all stand around shouting for gay rights, you're more than happy for religious beliefs to be banned'

Um,so the Quakers and alltheliberalreligious peopleareout there are looking for religion to be banned? Okaaaaaaay.

And I agree with Onager.

And am not a fascict. As you known DP, and have agreed yourself in fact. So bollocks to that as well. One rule for all is not fascism, it is simple fair sense.

PrincessFiorimonde · 07/02/2010 22:55

dp, I thought it was your question originally. But (Catholic to Catholic) can you answer my point that:

"surely you don't want an 'openly hetero' priest either - in the sense of a sexually active priest shacked up with a woman?

"Isn't the point that a priest is supposed to be celibate?

"So, in other words, whether the hypothetical priest's orientation is either gay or hetero makes no difference, as long as he doesn't act upon his sexuality - either way?"

Am not having a go at you (I think you know that). Just wonder what you think.

Sasamaxx - please don't feel persecuted either. And have a think about this question too.

Night night all.

BethNoireNewNameForPeachy · 07/02/2010 23:01

Good question actually.

Surely if a priest is a good priest you'd have no clue who he fancied?

Blackduck · 08/02/2010 08:56

but we ARE a secular state....

noddyholder · 08/02/2010 09:00

How can you turn a secular state into a secular state?

daftpunk · 08/02/2010 09:41

If this was a true secular state, you wouldn't have groups like the secular society campaigning for the abolishment of faith schools.....

If we were a secular state...would the secuar society even exist..?

lol

BadgersPaws · 08/02/2010 09:46

"Someone else keeps googling Bibles I mention and then posting whatever interesting info the internet gives about them which although quite interesting, is slightly pointless"

Pointless?

There is a verse in the Bible that is open to much debate and discussion as to what is actually meant.

A recent translation of the Bible replaces one word in that verse with a euphemistic interpretation.

It so happens that the choice of meaning is one that represents the Church's position on the controversial understanding of that verse.

It also so happens that the choice of meaning denies the possibility of the Church's opponents position on the meaning of the verse.

Future readers of that verse are left with the impression that there is no debate as to what the verse actually means.

Blair does that sort of word play in the "dodgy dossier" and people are calling for him to be tried for war crimes.

A religious group does it to a Bible and it's called "pointless" to debate it.

"We have already ascertained that many Bibles use the word 'know' but the intention is clear that they don't just want a chat."

The intention might be clear in your eyes.

To other people it's not clear.

That there is a big debate about what that verse means must surely mean that it cannot be clear.

"There's no way the same word would have meant two different things when used in such close proximity - that's very basic linguistics."

Well that's an argument you can take when discussing that verse and in all honesty it's a very reasonable argument to make.

My point is that the deliberate political editing of the Bible to kill that discussion and to give the impression to future readers that there is no basis for any discussion at all cannot be a good thing.

BadgersPaws · 08/02/2010 09:48

"but we ARE a secular state...."

Our head of state is the head of the Church and we have Bishops given seats in the House of Lords just because they are Bishops.

We are most definitely not a secular state.

noddyholder · 08/02/2010 09:50

Well regardless no one can agree!If he does come I think all the catholics should pay for his silly hat and truck I don't want it coming out of my taxes

BadgersPaws · 08/02/2010 09:55

"If he does come I think all the catholics should pay for his silly hat and truck I don't want it coming out of my taxes"

I do not agree with what he's saying and how he's trying to be above the law but I do agree that he has the right to say it and to try to get the law amended.

So I believe that we should be paying for his security, though I'm not sure if that includes the "Pope Mobile".

slug · 08/02/2010 10:36

Actually daftpunk it is you who needs to stand back and see the bigger picture

You choose to follow a religion

You do not choose to be gay

By granting this religious concession you allow discrimination in the workplace.

By denying this religious concession you do not allow discrimination in the workplace.

Who has the greater right here? A section of society who do not choose to be who they are or a group who seeks the right to discriminate against that section of society? Whether or not you choose to wrap this up in religious justifications, you are proporting a distinctly unChristian way of behaving.

BadgersPaws · 08/02/2010 10:52

"Who has the greater right here? A section of society who do not choose to be who they are or a group who seeks the right to discriminate against that section of society?"

There's also an issue of if the Catholic Church is granted exemption from the law so as to discriminate against one group of people what will then stop it building on that and growing it's discriminatory practices?

What happens if their next move is to push to be allowed to refuse employment to divorcees or unmarried cohabiting couples?

Was it ever answered if current employment law would allow the Catholic Church to deny employment to those groups of people?

We either draw a line and say "this is the law, follow it" or we allow discrimination and accept that many of us could easily be subject to such discrimination in the future.

daftpunk · 08/02/2010 10:57

It's still hard to get accepted into some catholic schools if you are unmarried or divorced.

BadgersPaws · 08/02/2010 11:01

"It's still hard to get accepted into some catholic schools if you are unmarried or divorced."

Do you mean for a job or for your child to have a place?

And for either are they actually allowed to state "you are unmarried, that is a sin, we will not employ you"?

Or do they state "other reasons" for the rejection?

daftpunk · 08/02/2010 11:06

Oh sorry, I meant a place for your child...

I haven't had direct experience as I'm married, but I know it's very difficult to get in if you aren't exactly what they're looking for...

onagar · 08/02/2010 12:10

"very difficult to get in if you aren't exactly what they're looking for"

Is it like when they used to tell black people that the hotel was fully booked once they saw they were the wrong color?

ilovemydogandmrobama · 08/02/2010 12:15

Really? Thought children didn't carry the sin of their parents?

daftpunk · 08/02/2010 12:19

You can't get into our school unless you have a glowing reference from your priest.

He has to state that you are a regular church goer...if you're not, forget it...you will not get in.

ilovemydogandmrobama · 08/02/2010 12:22

Yes, a regular church goer. Fair enough.

But no where on the form does it specify that the parents have to be married. There are lots of single moms in the local parish and their children go to the Catholic school. They are regular church goers and the children have been baptized.

daftpunk · 08/02/2010 12:27

I want my ds to go to the London Oratory....I will probably have to donate a kidney to someone in Africa, and throw them £10,000 towards new books...

It's hard to get into that school..

But I'll get my ds in...

noddyholder · 08/02/2010 12:50

The cstholic schoolsystem is played left right and centre with yummy mummies attending chapel hungover etc just to get in.An old work colleague with a very ? past has 2 at they oratory and is a MEGA HEATHEN! but has £££££

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