The Pope is coming to UK to campaign against equality: Does this make him a respectable leader of faith or a bigot?

[Strix]

What do you think?

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8492597.stm

help me out here....what are you talking about in particular...

topher, you may not have said it but many posters on this thread have said in various ways that the catholic faith encourages unjust discrimination towrds homosexuals, whereas if you read the catechism it categorically states that such discrimination should be avoided. And i doubt very much whether the pope would say anything which was against the catechism.
I can see your point in it being conceived as repressive, but if that is your view then simply choose another religion. The only lay people I can see it affecting is those working in catholic schools?

Freddo can you asnswer my earlier question about the catechism?I have read through it but scaneed some tbh and I am still not sure if you select the bits you want to adhere to or you are supposed to follow it all?Thanks (don't mean you individually just catholics in general)

Noddy - we are supposed to follow it all... but it is acknowledged that no-one actually does. Catholicism is about trying to live up to an ideal (ie. the ideal of being completely christlike) but we all fail in one way or another! The point is that we need to keep on striving.
No you cannot 'pick' the bits you want to adhere to. Most catholics would have areas that they have problems with but the idea is that they pray about these areas and discuss them and work through them. That may lead to acceptance of them or it may eventually lead to a change in the ideals themselves... but you can still be a catholic while you're working through these issues (and working through all of them takes about 10 lifetimes!)

FreddoBaggyMac
See what you mean about choose another faith but surely you do not get to choose as your parents decide for you, as is thier right not denigrating that, but you have to admit that some of the things that you would be taught and expected to follow are repressive. By the time your old enough to make the informed choice to leave the damage has been done. I'm sure that for every one person who follows the rules religously, no pun ,intended, there is one who has been badly affected by following those same rules. I am not talking about homosexuality here, but "straight" people.

Now were getting away from the point of this topic. Maybe a new topic entitled "Masturbation? Good or Bad.Discuss"

Thank you I have asked that several times but no reply.

It's quite simple, if you don't want the equality law to apply to you (the catholic church and as such all it's members). Then it doesn't. So don't cry when you get sacked or refused service for being:

Dangerously black
Wickedly female
Evilly homosexual
Alarmingly catholic
Carelessly pregnant
Dramatically old
Etc.

I'm sure the catholic church has members in all those categories. If you're catholic and this doesn't apply to you via your church then you don't get protection under the law. Why should you have more rights than any other person?

YesIKnowIt'sABitOfANonSequtirButTheOtherSideOfTheArgumentSeemsToHaveSooooMuchFunWithThemI ThoughtI'dHaveAGoTiggaxx

I don't this catholicism is taught in a repressive way now though topher - certainly not in schools anyway. Perhaps there are some parents out there messing there children up with their religious fanaticism, but I know some pretty strict catholics and most of their children seem to be turning out to be fairly well adjusted people!
Most people would be teenagers before they even considered the kind of rules we're talking about and by that age they'd be hopefully looking to make their own choices anyway.

Why not stay here and count us catholic sheep?

Chastity and homosexuality

2357
"Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved."

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

DP, sorry - I'll do it in shorter words for you. You're just a BNP bigot. The fact that you are RC is coincidental not the reason you're a bigot.

That is currently the official line of the church topher yes. But it does also say that (I repeat) homosexuals 'must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.'
So in actual fact, even if people choose to uphold the beliefs that you mention, those beliefs should not impinge on their actions in any way. People are entitled to hold whatever beliefs they wish if their beliefs are not going to lead to any kind of negative actions.

"Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained."

Not suprising, as its genesis is physical - genetics and hormonal developmental. Its not a 'psychological' condition, its not all in the mind, its not a 'lifestyle choice'. Its the way certain people are built.

They are contrary to the natural law.
That's just a baseless assertion. Whether its in the catechism or not, it has no scientific basis - and what else can 'natural law' possibly mean? The church may claim its contrary to its own 'supernatural law' if it wants but it has no authority to decide what is a 'natural law'.

Does anyone have a link to exactly what the Pope did say? Because everything I've read points to his intervention being to allow discrimination against lay workers on the grounds of their sexual status. I simply can't see how it squares with the catholic catechism.

'must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.'

Whether he meant to or not, the pope does not seem to have avoided giving signs of unjust discrimination. He appears not to have accepted homosexuals with respect, compassion, and sensitivity.

that's the way it has been reported anyway grimma, personally I cannot imagine that the pope would have said anything against the catechism - I have more trust in that belief than I do in the words of journalists!

My only thought is that he wants to prevent the bill in order to prevent homosexuals who (and i'm going to use the horrible word again, sorry) 'flaunt' their sexuality from becoming teachers in a Catholic environment. I KNOW that most homosexuals do not do this. However I think most people would acknowledge that a small proportion do present themselves in a way to show they are proud of being homosexual. That is fine, but not in the context of a leadership position in a catholic school (just as it would not be fine to shout about having an abortion or using condoms). In a way being forced to employ such a personwould compromise religious freedom.

Presumably in general Catholic schools would not (and I know they do not) discriminate against homosexuals because would be acting against their own ideals by doing so.

According to EWTN this is what the Pope actually said:

Your country is well known for its firm commitment to equality of opportunity for all members of society. Yet as you have rightly pointed out, the effect of some of the legislation designed to achieve this goal has been to impose unjust limitations on the freedom of religious communities to act in accordance with their beliefs. In some respects it actually violates the natural law upon which the equality of all human beings is grounded and by which it is guaranteed. I urge you as Pastors to ensure that the Church?s moral teaching be always presented in its entirety and convincingly defended. Fidelity to the Gospel in no way restricts the freedom of others ? on the contrary, it serves their freedom by offering them the truth. Continue to insist upon your right to participate in national debate through respectful dialogue with other elements in society. In doing so, you are not only maintaining long-standing British traditions of freedom of expression and honest exchange of opinion, but you are actually giving voice to the convictions of many people who lack the means to express them: when so many of the population claim to be Christian, how could anyone dispute the Gospel?s right to be heard?

Looking at that I think it's debatable whether it has anything at all to do with homosexuality to be honest!!
He is talking about a natural law of equality, not anything to do with natural laws of sexuality...

This thread is moving too fast now and becoming a bit DP-bashing and a bit hypocritical and a bit nasty.

I would hope that some contributors now realise that not all catholics are against homosexuals AT ALL, that we are not all sheep, that we do have opinions of our own and that we are not afraid to voice those opinions in church or wherever we happen to be whilst still holding onto our catholic identities - because being a catholic forms a part of who we are and that is why we cannot just walk away from it, that is why we are putting up a fight against the media portrayal of it and against the Pope and his henchmen trying to drag it back into the middle ages.

Freddo - I heard you about the catechism and you are quite right, it does say in the catholic doctrine that gay people are to be accepted. So I'm not quite sure what the Pope hopes to achieve by going against the Equality Bill. We've established that gay people are routinely employed by the church anyway without a problem so I don't really see his point - or yours when it comes to catholic gay teachers in school.

I also don't like the DP bashing or catholic bashing. She may have strong views that I disagree with, she may have biased views, but you are arguing FOR the equality bill and AGAINST hate-filled views. So don't then ruin your argument by conducting personal attacks of DP and labelling all catholics as the same.

Counteracting abusive views with abuse is not the way to go.

Would love to talk to you more Freddo and others on here, but this thread is taking up far too much of my time now and I have serious family concerns to address. It's been interesting though. Another time....

Hope you had a chance to read what the pope actually said above Rhubarb. Judging by that these whole 30 odd pages have been completely off topic anyway Will teach me to look at the facts not the newspapers next time anyway....

Good posts Rhubarb and Freddo!

Yet as you have rightly pointed out, the effect of some of the legislation designed to achieve this goal has been to impose unjust limitations on the freedom of religious communities to act in accordance with their beliefs.

The amendment in question was (if I understood correctly) to clarify that the exemption from discrimination laws for clergy in religious organisations did not extend to laity. So although the statement is lacking in clarity, given the context I can't see what other meaning it could have except that the churches wish to have the freedom to make such discrimination. Sorry but what else could it mean?

Yes but it is not talking about homosexuality specifically which is what has been implied (or should I say shouted about!), it covers everything that is contrary to the catholic faith does it not?