The Pope is coming to UK to campaign against equality: Does this make him a respectable leader of faith or a bigot?

[Strix]

What do you think?

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8492597.stm

Mmmm, MQ, I agree to a certain extent though I'm not sure you'd find many educated Catholics who believe in the actuality of transubstantiation. More the essence of it if that makes sense.

I'm a practising Catholic who refuses to send my kids to a Catholic school as I do not want indoctronation(sp) Neither am I keen on the Church in Rome. It makes me laugh when people from Church chit chat about the government being greedy and about fat cat bankers etc. What is the Vatican if not one big 'boys' club living off the fat of the poor and uneducated?

The funny thing is, (except obviously it's not funny at all) is that the news coverage here (here being Italy of course) is always going on about dem dere narsty paedo priests in America, haven't heard Ireland mentioned.

Like it was being in some hedonistic proddy run country that corrupted them, not the fact that it was actually the constraints of Rome that attracted them to the cloth in the first place.

I have a gay friend here, who is very very religious, likewise a divorced friend who can't take communion anymore, and what get's me is how can they not start to question that. They just accept that they are sinners, and the church is kind enough to let them through the door.

If you think Benny is bonkers you should listen to the one who (god forbid fnar) might be next in line- Ruini. Makes Benny and Ann Widdecomb look like free love zealots.

"Hate to crash the catholic bashing party, but just wanted to say that alot of catholics agree with the pope.....

sorry.... "

Hate to state the bleedin' obvious but a lot of Catholics don't. So your arguments means, er, oh yeah, nothing in the tar them all with the same brush sense. Tell this, 'every Catholic is a homophobe' bollocks to the very openly gay people who work at our church in a variety of roles including the very front of house job of singing at mass. Really homophobic, us lot.

ImSoNotTelling sums it up perfectly.

"all the catholics that i know are catholic through family and culture - they haven't made an active choice to join IYSWIM, they just do it. Being ctaholic is part of what they are, their identity. (We're mainly talking irish and italian heritage).

So they do feel completely comfortable with separating the two."

In other words, it's not our fault we've got a nutter at the top, we weren't there sending out the puffs of smoke at the vatican, so direct your rage at him, not Catholics worldwide who mostly don't give a toss who you sleep with. It's like blaiming the British for the actions of the Royal family.

blaming even.

I couldn't agree more, Rockbird! Here here!

Well actually I think far from being able to override state laws, religion should give way to decency and morality, and yes it should change (and the catholic church does change btw - it tends to revise its teachings when they no longer make any practical sense).

Just because a set of beliefs is a religion according to its believers, doesn't make it right or acceptable. Anyone can start a religion full of all sorts of crazy shite - what about those sects that get their members to commit suicide? They should be above the law should they? What about suicide bombers who think god wants them to kill all infidels? That's their religious belief, so shall we stop trying to stop them?

This is the problem with saying you have to respect religious beliefs. Why do you? They are irrational.

Theoldestcat;

Of course it's ok to care about the rights of others....but if I wasn't homosexual or catholic I wouldn't be posting on this thread.

You are missing the fundamentals of the argument anyway..

The vast majority of Catholics do not think homosexuality is right....they will never change their minds.

"I'm not sure you'd find many educated Catholics who believe in the actuality of transubstantiation. More the essence of it if that makes sense."

I know what you're saying and understand some people do this but it makes absolutely no sense to me.
A: so you're a Catholic?what's the difference between that and protestants?

Bh well we believe in transubstantiation where as protestants believe it's merely symbolic and we believe the pope to be Gods messenger on earth.

A:Wow so you believe that the wine and bread literally turn into the body and blood of christ and you believe the pope's infallible?

B: well no, most people don't like the new pope and don't listen to him and let's be honest the holy communion is more symbolic than anything.

A: oh so you're a protestant.

B:How dare you I'm a Catholic

Ah I'm sorry....... what's the difference again?

DP;

Contraception is not accepted within the Catholic church.

the church still bumbles on, even though the birth rates of catholics show that the grass roots disagrees

DP I'm sorry to say that if you removed from the catholic church everyone who was gay, everyone who uses contraception, everyone who has had or is comfortable with the idea of abortion being available etc etc there would hardly be anyone left.

Yes some people agree with all the pope's views, IME most don't. And in order to keep practicing their religion, they like to stick their fingers in their ears and say "lalala" when stuff like this happens because they know it is insupportable as well.

Daftpunk, I (as a Catholic) disagree entirely with your last post.

MQ, my fingers are in my ears!

unintentional smileys there should be
"B : oh well..."
and
A: oh i'm sorry ..."

And my point is that I can't understand people saying they are a religion but trying to pick and choose which parts they believe in and which they don't. That's not up to them, you obviously have a right to pick and choose and describe your own belief system, but I don't see how you can say I'm a Catholic but I only choose to believe in parts X,Y & Z which I agree with but disagree with P&Q and even though they are central to this particular religion I don't have to believe in them to be a Catholic.
In that way you are making up you own mind and then trying to subscribe them to an organised religion which already has a belief system and which regulates itself.

You know what really pisses me off...

hetrosexuals banging on about the rights of homosexuals...

I can undersatnd gay people not being over keen on the pope......but anyone else...sorry, you just look like liberal idiots.

I thought it was just a nice friendly conversation between A and B

MQ you are misunderstanding what it means to "belong to a religion"

Because for most adherents it means that the practices, language, symbolism and narrative resonate with them and have meaning for them

It doesn't mean they got a list of 20 Things I Believe and attempted to match this with the best religion

What about my gay catholic friends DP?

How do they figure in your world?

DP: Are you white? Do you think that racism is boring and irrelevant? If not, why?

What a bizarre argument - that heterosexuals are not allowed to care about the rights of homosexuals?

How utterly utterly ridiculous.

Rather be a "liberal idiot" than a Catholic bigot.

Well, the Church changes it policies too. It is only relatively recently that priests were told they had to be celibate. This change came about not through any theological discussion but rather because it was cheaper if the Church only had to support a single man rather than an entire family.

I guess I'm an adapted Catholic. And no, I don't think that means i'm not entitled to call myself a Catholic though sometimes, like today, I'm somewhat ashamed of it.

MP;

You can't help being black....

Homosexuality is a lifestyle choice.

"MQ, my fingers are in my ears! "

haha it's actually hillarious how many people are exactly the same. It's just something I could never come to grips with but I get why people do it, they're happy with their religion and you are completely right, most Catholics I know are of the same opinion as you. And most of the parish/footsoldier priests I knew growing up in Catholic Ireland focussed a lot more on inclusion and finding out what way of practising your faith made you a happier better person rather than wondering what technical rights you followed.
And if people practising in this way can make sense of it in their own head and it makes them better people than if they just gave up on spirituality then more power to them if they're taking some good away from it, that would be my subjective view on the matter.
my objective view is as above.

DP- I'd say heterosexuals banging on about the rights of homosexuals is part of being a decent human being.

Rather be a liberal idiot than a narrow minded bigot.
I cannot believe that you see your comments as reasonable.
Did you write Margaret Thatcher's 'Society' speech?

It's no surprise to me that most Catholics are not like the pope, but what is the definition of a catholic?

Surely it's that branch of Christianity that believes the pope is put there by god (among other things)

So surely if you are too decent to follow the pope's bigotry you are by definition a good (but non catholic) Christian.

What's the difference between a Catholic who rejects all the old bigoted rules and just lives by 'jesus said to be nice to each other' and a protestant who says the same thing?

Surely both are simply Christian.