The Pope is coming to UK to campaign against equality: Does this make him a respectable leader of faith or a bigot?

[Strix]

What do you think?

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8492597.stm

FBM;

thank you for that link..

Are you new to MN...?

If you are, you will have to get used to the hysteria on here surronding a few subjects...and a few posters total lack of historical knowledge..(ie; homosexuality has only been legal in this country for a few years)

Off to pick my ds up from our lovely wholesome catholic school...

I thought everyone knew how recently homosexuality was legalised.

Everyone who's ever heard of Alan Turing knows, and what a terrible loss to humankind was caused by that awful,inhumane law .

If you don't know about Alan Turing then you really are lacking historical knowledge.

Fortunately society progresses, shame it wasn't in time for him, and many others.

"If you are, you will have to get used to the hysteria on here surronding a few subjects...and a few posters total lack of historical knowledge..(ie; homosexuality has only been legal in this country for a few years)"

and your point is???

OO daftpunk, someone on mumsnet being nice to me and saying thank you... I have to acknowledge you No I'm not new, but have stayed away from the religion and spirituality and similar sections for a while after getting so worked up on it during my last pregnancy that it almost made the baby come early!! I don't think I could ever get used to this hysteria which is why I'm REALLY forcing myself to steer clear... if I can that is. Being an 'open' Catholic on mumsnet quickly turns into a self destructive addiction I find... Maybe it's part of my Catholic guilt and persecution complex that I keep coming back, I do it instead of self-flagellation

Blackduck, the point is that Catholicism is a religion which does not easily compromise and bow to what is fashionable. It sets ideals and doesn't change what they are just because we're finding things a bit inconvenient, and that's why I'm proud to be one. I'm NOT talking about homosexuality specifically here so don't start labelling me a homophobe all over again, it's just a comment on the church in general.
Now I must stop flagellating and do the school run...

Just wondering - there seem to be quite a lot of 'open catholics' on this thread who don't seem to find the reaction to the Pope's interference 'hysterical' - in fact share it. I don't think anti-catholicism is what this is about at all, its about anti-homophobia.

"fashionable" lol!!

Freddo, the church's stance is unmoving and I do agree with many things they refuse to move on. BUT the many regulations the church has does not come from the Bible.

I wonder if you've read any of my past contributions to this thread?

DF just because something was illegal not so long ago does not make it immoral. It used to be illegal to hang your washing out on a Sunday. All manner of things were illegal, all that shows is that the law is an ass.

It used to be illegal to commit suicide too. Maybe there's people in various churches who still think it should be, but the rest of the world has moved on from such inhumanity.

To some the pope saying "I don't think that WE should be made to employ gay people" may sound quite mild and unimportant. I've been thinking though. In the popes ideal world (and presumably one he is working towards) everyone would be catholic and would therefore refuse to employ gay people.

So he is actually saying "gay people shouldn't be allowed to have jobs"

Since in many countries not having a job means dying of starvation that becomes much more serious doesn't it.

Well, to be fair, Catholicism has always been a little slow when it comes to social movements. It only officially condemmed chattel slavery in the Second Vatican Council. It still, as far as I know, but please feel free to correct me, does not condem "just title slavery" i.e. the forced labour of prisoners/prisoners of war etc.There's actually more in the Bible about slaves duties to their masters than there is about homosexuality.

They are also not too hot on women's right to vote either, Catholic countries being significantly slower to grant universal sufferage than non-Catholic ones.

Human rights.. so fashionable

I seem to recall that Louis Farrakhan (sp?) is not allowed into the UK as he is an anti-semitic, woman-hating, homophobic arsehole of a religious leader. Given that, total knobber though he may be, he is a religious leader of a recognized brand of superstition (Nation Of Islam to save your googling fingers), how come he's banned (along with, let us freely admit and rejoice, David Duke and co) and Benny the Bonkers is made a huge fuss of?

Rhubarb, I haven't read all of your posts but I promise I will try (it's extremely hard trying to juggle such a discussion with looking after preschoolers). But I have said that I am aware that all the rules of the church don't come from the Bible, they come from the catechism also. I have read the catechism and feel able to justify what it says to myself in terms of my own belief in how I should live my life.

What I do think is that this whole thing is blown up completely out of proportion. The pope really is not coming to England with the purpose of causing a gay holocaust...

No, he's just coming to England with the intention of trying to influence the legal process here to allow his organisation to practise employment discrimination.

I bet stonewall wouldn't employ me...they'd have to interview me but they'd find some excuse not to employ me....and who could blame them..?

why would a homosexual organisation want a hetrosexual working for them......doesn't make sense.

No he is not slug. He has commented that a bill which may or may not go through parliament may impinge on religious freedom.

The fact is that Catholic schools DO employ active homosexuals already, just as they employ people who co-habit and who have had abortions... believe it or not they even employ people who use condoms!!!!! There is an understanding however that working in the context of a catholic school these people do not flaunt the fact that they have done or are doing something that the church disagrees with, they keep quiet about it. I have absolutely no problem with this, I don't know anyone who does.

This bill however would make it perfectly acceptable for homosexuals to flaunt their sexuality whilst in the role of catholic teacher. I seriously doubt whether many of them would to do that anyway, but that is what the bill would allow and what the Pope disagrees with. And as a Catholic parent i would not want any sexuality (gay or otherwise) to be advertised to my children by their teacher.

AND that is still not why he is coming to england Slug... he is coming to honour Cardinal Newman and visit the Catholics who support him (all two of us judging by this thread )

He's not a foreign preacher in the sense that Catholicism isn't confined to geography - it is a global faith - and he is the head of it.

I disagree with the Pope entirely on this issue, as do many Catholics, but that doesn't give everyone free reign to insult the entire Church and all the practising Catholics out there who are doing their best to live according to certain values.

There are certain aspects of Islam or Judaisim that one could question, but does that give you the right to insult every practising Muslim or Jew? No, of course it doesnt't, so I'd just ask everyone to please calm down and afford Catholics the same respect. Thanks.

I still don't understand why, as an employer, the Pope has any right to campaign for the right to ignore the laws that force employers to treat all employees fairly.

The Catholic Church employs a lot of people in the UK. They run nursing homes, adoption agencies, social service agencies, schools etc. Why should employees in these organisations have to put up with less than the minimum employment rights enjoyed by the rest of the country?

How Christian is that? It just beggars belief that anyone can concievably think it's OK to demand lesser rights for their employees and not expect the howl of moral outrage.

So are you saying Freddo that religious freedom superseeds employment rights?

.....and you wonder why there are so many ex Catholics (myself included)

Also slug, regarding your points on slavery. I would argue that the catholic church has done more than most organisations to abolish it, organisations such as White fathers, Fransiscans and Jesuits particularly.

Point taken freddo, but while they may have done much to oppose it, as in the homosexual issue, it wasn't till much much later that they officially condemmed it. Remember, the Popes were slave owners too.

P.S. can you please, please tell me how one flaunts homosexuality? I have visions of mincing teachers wearing pick and pouting with limp wrists, but that's just an outdated, offensive sterotype isn't it?

StillCounting, there are only one or two posters on here that have condemned all catholics and to be honest they are not worth bothering with. Because whilst calling all catholics bigots they are showing themselves to be equally bigoted.

Freddo I disagree that it gives teachers free reign to shout out about their sexuality. I don't know any homosexual that just bangs on (I just can't help it - sorry!) about their sexuality. They are of the opinion that it is nobody's business.

You are doing them a huge disservice and showing yourself to be bigoted if you think that gay teachers will suddenly put homosexuality on the syllabus, wearing bondage gear and bringing their partners to schools. That just ain't gonna happen.

At the moment the church can ask an employee about their sexuality and refuse them a job if they admit to being gay. How is that fair? How can the church preach love and acceptance when they don't practice it?

Do they also ask prospective teachers if they've ever had pre-marital sex? If they've conducted an affair? If they use contraception? Why not as all of these things are also against the creed of the church.

I would say that religious freedom is just as important as employment rights certainly Slug. But if you read my post above you'll see that what the pope is saying does not really impinge on employment rights.

I don't wonder why there are so many ex- catholics to be honest, if you choose to be an ex-catholic that's fine and I don't question it... I allow people to have their religious freedom