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The Pope is coming to UK to campaign against equality: Does this make him a respectable leader of faith or a bigot?

821 replies

Strix · 02/02/2010 08:43

What do you think?

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8492597.stm

OP posts:
GochaGocha · 03/02/2010 10:59

Sorry RedBin, I am not trying to be sarky and don't know what you mean ... been offline minding the shop. But I do think that using the bible is cheating a bit, because there are lots of bits that the Church does not deem relevant now. If there are things that are not relevant now, why is this one that they hang on to? Because of some deeper moral principle, or because it supports existing and deep-seated prejudice?

In other news ...

Anybody seen this?

The main point:

noddyholder · 03/02/2010 11:04

Here we go again the biggest hypocrite ever who picks and chooses which parts of catholicism suit her lifestyle choices and insults any that don't.Can someone really say something like 'you can't help being black' and say they are a christian.Ridiculous

ImSoNotTelling · 03/02/2010 11:09

Haven't caught up with the thread but wanted to post this story from the papers today for the "homosexuality goes against nature" types.

Rhubarb · 03/02/2010 11:33

Yes but do they munch feathers?

Noddy my grandmother used to say that about blacks, bless her. This despite having 2 black grandchildren adopted by my mother. No surprise though when you consider that it really wasn't that long ago that the catholic church was telling people that unless you were baptised a catholic you were going to hell.

That was overturned by Pope John Paul II who said that God was powerful enough to draw himself to those unable to receive the sacrament.

I live in hope that a Pope will come who is strong enough to overturn other such unfounded and outdated beliefs that have nothing to do with Christ's teachings.

BadgersPaws · 03/02/2010 12:45

"BadgersPaws, the church does discriminate against other sections of society too. The huge adoption row was because they would not allow same sex couples or unmarried couples to adopt a child."

OK but right now the noise they are making and the statements about "natural law" are all about homosexuality.

They're not asking to be able to discriminate against unmarried mothers, adulterers, etc. etc. when it comes to non-religious jobs.

But they are asking to be able to discriminate against homosexuals when it comes to non-religious jobs.

BadgersPaws · 03/02/2010 12:49

And while I think of it....

What we basically have here is a foreign preacher coming to the UK, telling us to change our laws, trying to be exempt to other laws and trying to change our culture.

And because his views are controversial and offensive to many we're having to pick up his security bill.

So where are the BNP and English Defence League?

Where are the "if you don't like it here then leave" crowd?

What about the "deport them" supporters?

Isn't this the sort of thing that outrages them?

Hang on.

daftpunk · 03/02/2010 13:06

Pretty sure there have been black popes ...certainly loads of black catholic priests....my priest is black African

Plus, I think The BNP agree with the pope on homosexuality....

sarah293 · 03/02/2010 13:11

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Message withdrawn

daftpunk · 03/02/2010 13:13

Don't wind me up Riven.....

StillCounting · 03/02/2010 13:16

Um, I haven't read all of the thread but I'd just like to make a general point to those on here who are accusing people of "picking and choosing" which bits of a religion they which then (supposedly) makes them hypocritical.

Sorry. But that's a terribly naieve and simplistic view. Most of the major faiths embrace a spectrum of believers who range from fundamentalist to liberal.

As Rhubarb says - there are loads of us liberal Catholics out there who practice their faith partly for cultural reasons (ie that we were brought up in the church and we feel comfortable with its rites and rituals), partly because we follow basic Christian teachings (ie the life of Christ) and Catholicism happens to be our particular branch of that ,and thirdly because MANY (but by no means all) of the things Catholicism stands for are good, believe it or not.

We don't just sit in the pews like cabbages and unthinkingly accept all that we are told. We agree with some of it, some of it we find difficult and we struggle but try and work on ourselves, and sometimes (as in this case) we downright disagree and express that view.

In fact, I happened to see a priest at dd's school this lunch time and made my views known about this issue and he totally agreed with me.

I therefore remain a Catholic (a struggling one) and I hope to influence the way the Church develops in a small way too.

Um, that's all really.

StillCounting · 03/02/2010 13:18

And the pope isn't a "foreign preacher" - he's the head of a global faith.

Just like the Archbishop of Canterbury is the head of all the Protestant churches across the world.

GrimmaTheNome · 03/02/2010 13:29

I can't imagine why "Ministers were astonished on Monday when the Pope said that the Bill violated ?natural justice? and urged bishops to fight it. ". Its the sort of thing he says, isn't it? What is astonishing is that it should influence them in the slightest.

BadgersPaws · 03/02/2010 13:30

"Plus, I think The BNP agree with the pope on homosexuality...."

Well they probably do, they probably also agree with Anjem Choudary and Islam4Uk over it too.

With the Pope we've got a genuine foreigner trying to interfere with the laws and culture of this country.

Why isn't he being told "you come to this country you live by our laws or f**k off" as has been said to other foreign, and some not at all foreign, preachers?

BadgersPaws · 03/02/2010 13:35

"And the pope isn't a "foreign preacher" - he's the head of a global faith."

Well he may not be just a foreign preacher but he is foreign and he does preach, so calling him a "foreign preacher" is perfectly apt.

In the same style I'd call President Obama a "foreign politician".

LeninGrad · 03/02/2010 13:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Blackduck · 03/02/2010 13:46

Surely this is the problem when secular society comes into conflict with religion. We are a secular society (or try to be) the state makes laws etc. without religious bias (although I suspect that is highly debatable as we are all influenced by the religious background we are raised in whether we chose to practise or not). The think I don't get, is as LG says, this man is making a statement aboout a certain section of society and how they shouldn't have equality, despite the fact we have laws to enshrine that equality. I think he is close to inciting hatred and yet, here we are paying a huge tax bill and wining and dining him......

daftpunk · 03/02/2010 13:52

BP;

Would it make a difference if the pope was black..?

You seem to have a problem with him being white.

BadgersPaws · 03/02/2010 13:54

"BP, you've hit the nail on the head there, all too true. One lot we'd be deporting/locking up, the other we're putting on state banquets for."

Well in all honesty I've got no problem with anyone, foreign or British, standing up and preaching that this country should be changed through either spirituality of politics.

I also believe that if people would protest against those speakers then we have a duty to protect them.

However I'm not one of the "you come to this country you live by our laws or f**k off" crowd.

What I am wondering is why that group of people, who claim that their protests are based on this idea of protecting our culture from foreign influence, aren't hopping up and down and waving their "you come to this country you live by our laws or f**k off" banners at the Pope.

That would surely at least be consistent and this time aimed at a genuine foreigner rather than a British citizen?

LeninGrad · 03/02/2010 13:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BadgersPaws · 03/02/2010 13:59

"Would it make a difference if the pope was black..?

You seem to have a problem with him being white."

Not at all.

But certain groups have said before that foreigners shouldn't come here and try to change our culture and laws.

So why is it OK in their eyes for the Pope to do it?

Surely there's some rational basis behind the "you come to this country you live by our laws or f**k off" crowd?

Rhubarb · 03/02/2010 14:01

He's not coming here to live you know....

And if that's the case then I presume you are against the war in Iraq and Afghanistan and the peace-process in N.Ireland.

The fact that he is a foreigner has nothing to do with it.

He is the Head of the Catholic Church and he is voicing his views on the equality bill. He is not a politician nor someone who really makes a jot of difference in politics. Some catholics will love what he has to say, but the vast majority will not.

Let's see what kind of a receptions he gets in Blighty as opposed to Rome that is teeming with traditional catholics paying homage to him.

daftpunk · 03/02/2010 14:03

BP;

What are you going on about..?

The pope isn't coming here to live...he'll probably only be here 24 hours..

thedollshouse · 03/02/2010 14:05

Why does anyone take him seriously anyway? I don't get it.

FreddoBaggyMac · 03/02/2010 14:07

I don't have time to read through all this today (and if I'm perfectly honest I don't have the energy either!) It's pretty much a waste of effort given that at least 10 people are going to immediately pull apart any statement I make! I don't have any great interest in the church's teachings on homosexuality to be honest, I just entered this discussion to try and give the other side of the arguement (as pretty much everything before I joined seemed to be extremely anti-pope if not anti-catholic).

Riven I did notice your comment saying that Jesus did not set up the catholic church, my belief that he did comes from Matthew 16:18 'You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my community.'

Anyway, I just came back on to post this for any catholics reading this who are genuinely excited about the Pope's visit (if there are any on mumsnet...)It's nice to read something with a positive slant on catholicism (for once ) Please do not feel the need to lambast it anyone!

Now I'm really going to force myself not to spend more time on this, it's ironic how 'mumsnet' is the number one cause of me neglecting my children!

FreddoBaggyMac · 03/02/2010 14:16

Probably should also add that as mentioned in the article I linked to, I am also a catholic who does 'struggle' with the church's teaching on homosexuality. (Although i'm not saying I disagree with it).Just didn't see the point of coming on here and agreeing with you all, it's good to think for yourself sometimes ya know