The Pope is coming to UK to campaign against equality: Does this make him a respectable leader of faith or a bigot?

[Strix]

What do you think?

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8492597.stm

Edam:
Not avoiding anything, you brought up Leviticus at lunchtime, I'm merely passing the information on - don't shoot the messenger.

GochaGocha

Why the sarcasm? I only pointed a poster to a book of the bible.

i dont grow certain crops together.

The thing is, the catholic church is inherently obsessed with sex, and run by people who are profoundly sexually dysfunctional. And nasty, and bigoted and ridiculous.
So I really do wonder how any intelligent and ethical person can stand to belong to such an organisation. Because, however liberal and decent you may be in yourself, if you remain a member of this revolting institution, you are supporting its acceptance and covering up of institutionalised child abuse, its misogyny, homophobia, parasitism on the poor and the damage it is doing to work on stopping the spread of AIDS in the developing world.

why are you citing leviticus as an argument - if you aren't willing to stand by it?

you either believe all its rules or you don't theres not fucking about in a middle ground here - so spill it buster - what side are you on?

"... and run by people who are profoundly sexually dysfunctional."

i think whilst there have been acknowledgements of the heinous history of the church, to condemn all of the people wh 'run' it as 'profoundly sexually dysfunctional And nasty, and bigoted and ridiculous.' whilst being your own personal opinion, it must be stated is not necessarily fact.

i don't think expressing ones faith through catholicism means condoning anything. This is a terribly one sided view, and whilst it is admitted that there have been some truly horrible acts committed in the name of catholicism and abuse of power, it is disingenuous to suggest that the whole of the church and the people within are condoning the wronful actions of some. Indeed this is a very bigoted view and one which fails to recognise the very good widespread works of the church in favour of loaded language to taint all associated with it.

Am I missing something here, who is Leviticus?

Hahaha StarryEyed!

I actually feel quite sorry for moderate Catholics, who are obviously ashamed they're represented by such a bigot. Just wish they were able to show their disgust by leaving a church that teaches such drivel...

SGB, in my opinion, it is the Catholic haters who are inherently obsessed, namely with the notion that the Catholic church is obsessed with sex. Is this the only aspect of RC teaching that anyone is interested in then? Does everyone form their opinions solely based on media headlines and soundbites? Anyone who believes that the Catholic Church is simply a man-made organisation with a set of rules dreamt up to deliberately cause people grief has simply not done their homework.

I wonder if he could be denied entry to the UK on the basis that he is inciting hatred of the gay community ...

A mischievous and baffling thought ..... although anyone who wants an example of what incitement of hatred is like need look no further than this thread!

Perish the thought that the esteemed commentators on this thread should actually seek to base their cherished and deeply held views based on an understanding of what the Church's teachings actually are rather than from headlines and media soundbites. But that wouldn't be any fun though would it?

I knew I shouldn't have read this thread!

Roobie: every religion is a man-made institution set up by people who want to have power over others/indulge their own wierd prejudices/make themselves wealthy. Because, guess what? There aren't any invisible sky fairies in charge of things, so all religions are simply made up by human beings. THe original starting point of religion was to explain the world in a simplistic way for those who can't be bothered with science, but more importantly religion exists to control the many for the benefit of the few.

religeon is a construction which has arisen out of faith. This is no way means that there is not a god. Nor does it mean that people who believe in god cannot be 'bothered' with science. Indeed scientists can practice religeon, the two are not mutually exclusive. You see there are many scientific theories as to how we came into existence... even teleological ones!

SGB, if only everyone felt like that the world might be a happier, safer place to live in.....
However humans, being naturally competitive, will always lean towards some form of hierarchy. Just wish it wasn't always one who spouts such bile

Catholicism, as it is today, was invented by Constantine. You know him who named that Turkish city after himself before it got changed to Istanbul?

Jesus came down and refuted a lot of the OT - all this not working on a Sunday and shit, he criticised traditions and not enough actual faith. Now we are going back to square one and putting too much emphasis on the OT which was written for the time after all.

My faith is Christianity, that is based on Christ's teachings. That is also what the church says but I don't find bigotry in any of the teachings of Christ.

If you call yourself a Christian you could at least take the time to read a bit of the NT. The message is loud and clear.

Look into the history of the catholic church and you will see that one man set most of the rules and decided how the church should run - Constantine - because catholicism was split into fractions, he brought them all together with a new set of rules and said that in order to be called a catholic they HAD to accept the church's rulings. Nothing to do with God at that point and everything to do with power.

It's a really good point, Riven. No, Jesus didn't form a church. It was his followers. He didn't appoint a representative, so the assertion that the pope is god's rep on earth is not something I ever got from the NT.

But what do I know being lapsed and all.

iliovemydog - regarding the appointment of a rep and forming a church.

Did Jesus not say to Simon "You are Peter (Greek word for rock) and on this rock I will build my church"

the Catholic assertion is that the pope is the successor of Peter

I think this post sums the whole thing up quite nicely:

"So why specifically try to exclude the one particular 'sin' of active homosexuality from the equality legislation? Why doesn't the church insist on the right to discriminate against cohabiting unmarried couples?"

If the Pope stood up and said that they want the right to reject anyone who doesn't live a lifestyle that conforms to the Church's teachings then that would at least be consistent.

What reason is there for only wanting to be allowed to break the law over one very particular "sin"?

The most simple answer has got to be bigotry.

Oh fair point.

Y'know...I'm all for freedom of speech..I think it's really healthy to say what we really think..(within reason of course)...although your post quaottrocento is unbelievably pathetic. Catholics are probably the most easy going religious people around.....which is why you are able to talk bollox about them..

Have you heard of The Satanic Verses....do you know what happened to Salman Rushdie..?

BadgersPaws, the church does discriminate against other sections of society too. The huge adoption row was because they would not allow same sex couples or unmarried couples to adopt a child.

Divorced people are not allowed communion.

It is up to each priest whether or not to enforce that, but the church makes its views on pre-marital sex and adultery very clear.

However Jesus also made clear his views on adultery. What I disagree with is turning away divorcees - since when did Jesus ever turn anyone away? Communion is the act of receiving Jesus in church and these leaders are telling us that they will decide who deserves to receive Jesus and who doesn't???

Daftpunk if there is one thing I hope this thread has shown it is that no one catholic is alike. I certainly don't take kindly to people lumping us all together and making presumptions about the kind of people we are. That is like a bigot calling a bigot.

Yes there are catholics who accept the church's teachings and rules without question, but they are in the minority these days. Most of us question every aspect of our faith and we are not ignorant enough to think that the Pope has direct communications with God.

I think Jesus would be disgusted at the way the church is run today. Did he not throw the sellers and money lenders out of the temple? Yet at the back of every church you will find a stall selling religious trinkets and in the Vatican itself a hoarde of treasures.

Did Jesus not condemn the rich and say his followers should preach with nothing but a staff, a cloak and sandals? Yet the Church is one of the richest in the world.

Did Jesus not say that only God has the power to judge, that we should accept and love everyone even our own enemies? Yet the church regularly condemns whole sections of society and even turns them away from Jesus at the altar.

The church that Jesus formed with Peter at its head is far removed from the church you see today.

Still waiting for Redbin to confirm or deny her observance of the WHOLE of Leviticus, not just one verse she cherry-picks.

Henry VIII tried the same thing - one verse in one book suggests you may not marry your late brother's wife, one verse says you must (in order to provide for the widow). Funnily enough he cited the one that supported his case. And we all know what THAT led to. (I like the CofE, but not too keen on burning at the stake by either side.)