The Pope is coming to UK to campaign against equality: Does this make him a respectable leader of faith or a bigot?

[Strix]

What do you think?

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8492597.stm

I could be wrong but I am pretty certain that Christ had nothing to say about homosexuality. I think the pope is a bigot and the catholic church has more important things to worry about. Maybe he could spend time trying to heal the families whose lives have been ruined by pedophile priest.

"they are my religious beliefs"

Which is why "religious beliefs" should be treated by the rest of us the same as any beliefs. Religious beliefs do NOT trump the other kind and they do not trump 'facts'.

DP is sadly not alone in thinking that they carry extra weight.

Good point Onager - Dawkins wites about it very eloquently in the God Delusion....

Right, soon as I find out his itinery (if he comes), I'm there with me placard. Not in my name, matey.

In case you're still reading DP (and please stop playing the victim with regard to Riven, you got everything you asked for there), please for the love of everything holy will you STOP trying to speak on behalf of Catholics, the "vast majority of Catholics" or anyone but yourself. Or possibly my mum.

DifferentID - That's a good point: opinions and attitudes have changed a lot over time, and elderly people like the Pope have not necessarily adjusted theirs accordingly.

But not all old people are racist, sexist bigots, nor are all Catholics.

To answer your question: my father who is in his eighties (and who is a practising RC) does not have those views, nor did his father before him. My father believes in kindness and respect for others, which is a much better basis for a belief system than medieval dogma.

I'd be very surprised if the Pope didn't make speeches like this. His beliefs are driven by scripture that is very clear on what the attitude to homosexuals should be. Whether you believe that the bible is appropriate to the 21st Century is another issue but we should't be too shocked if a man who's whole life is based on the bible talks about it in public. The Pope is after all a Catholic.

I know a 90 year old who is not prejudiced against gays, lesbians or anyone else on grounds of sexual preference. Age is no excuse for bigotry - the older generation either fought against Hitler or grew up during WW2 or with the aftermath. They saw very clearly what bigotry led to.

This is about human rights and that affects all of us. And about our right as a society to make our own laws, thanks very much. Without interference from someone who is trying to use his privileged position to promote hatred. Who doesn't, on this issue, even represent many of his own followers in this country.

If I was in charge of an organisation that had been exposed as conniving at systemic child abuse, I'd be displaying a little humility right now, especially on issues of sexual morality. I'm sure humility is meant to be a virtue in Christianity...

The Bible is NOT clear on what attitudes to homosexuality should be, although Jesus was fairly forceful on issues of tolerance, forgiveness and understanding. If you are going to take the whole of Leviticus literally and ignore the Gospels, you'll have to take quite a lot alongside the gay bashing. Stoning people for growing different crops side by side, putting people to death for working on the Sabbath etc. etc. (Although I suppose killing the entire staff of the UK retail sector will keep you so busy you don't have time to discriminate against gay people.)

Limburg and Edam- I like that you both know open minded elderly people. DH grandmother is fairly open-minded and risque at times as well, but was brought up in a culture of "the male is the head of the family"

or as she quite naughtily put it, the male like to think he is at the head of the family

The problem is that a lot of the church's practises stem from what St Paul said. The Mass incorporates one of his letters every Sunday - the church love him!

He was NOT a disciple of Jesus.
He NEVER met Jesus.
He used to round up Christians to execute them and was a right bigot, then he had a vision and he turned his bigotry against women and other sections of society instead.
He met Peter once I think but on the whole the other disciples were very distrustful of him.

Jesus never said anything about homosexuals at all.

In fact I found this study on homosexuality in the Bible which I would implore DP to read.

I would ask her to question whether the church gives us guidelines with which to live from the Bible, or whether they dictate our beliefs to us in order to control and manipulate us. After all, if homosexuality was hardly mentioned in the Bible, then why all this vitriol against them? If being a homosexual was such a sin then why didn't Jesus mention it? He covered just about everything else.

One of my Grannies was a pillar of the Catholic Church, Madam Chairman (sic) of the whole darn Mother's Union in Wales IIRC. But late in life even she had come round to the idea of married priests. Partly on the pragmatic grounds that they were running out of people prepared to take a life-long vow of celibacy.

Edam- that is a view a lot of people my mothers' age have mentioned

"I'd rather have a married priest than a kiddy-fiddler."

She has a way with words, don't you think?
My mum did actually leave the church for about 10 years becasue of the inaction of the parish priest at the time.

Can someone explain to me why the queen has invited him here to spout this bigotry?

The pope is coming to the UK to honour cardinal Newman and visit the catholics of the country. The media are (yet again) using the opportunity to make him look like a homophobe because they know those headlines grab people's attention.

What is interesting is that extremists and fundamentalists often have very similar opinions and attitudes, even though they hate each other.

Christian fundamentalists (not just Catholic ones), the Taliban, the BNP: they all hate homosexuals, think that women should stay at home to pleasure their husbands, think that people who do not look/think like themselves are inferior.

The Pope is just staking a claim to his bigots, to make sure they don't stray into the welcoming arms of another outfit.

Very scary to think what would happen if they all put their heads together and formed a grand coalition of hate.

Shw likes his frocks and wants some advice

roffle

As far as I can see it (although I haven't read all of this thread) the Pope has only said that practising homosexuals should not be allowed to be Catholic priests (just as practising heterosexuals are not allowed) - seems fair enough to me! The media are just trying to blow it all out of proportion, I find their hate campaign against the pope and catholic church in general to be far more real than any supposed campaign the catholic church is supposed to have against minority groups. The basic Catholic belief is that we are all sinners and all do things which are against church teaching(except Jesus) and that we should love one another despite that... not really a bigots view surely! The Pope's job is to voice the opinion of the church in the context of the modern world, and he does a pretty good job I think.

Actually Freddo the Pope has said that he wants the right to disciminate against gays in catholic schools too.

(and is your other name Benedict by any chance?)

Okay, maybe we are drifting off topic, and I am going to be really really thick here, but as a third-generation unchurched peep, I need a theology lesson. Just saying "it's wrong" won't cut it, you know.

Okay I understand that the 10 commandments are really important. Killing, violating your marriage vows, lying, all are bad because they hurt others.

But what is the 'natural law' or moral argument that means that homosexuality is wrong?

Not killing, I get. Not hurting people, sure, and shagging another man's wife (Hey, daftpunk, where do you stand on JT's captaincy?) well, that seems to be getting a lot of people talking. Certainly worshipping another diety would disqualify you so, fair enough.

But when religious people say that homosexuality is wrong, what can they offer me that cannot be paraphrased by 'it freaks me out'?

Lots of infertile people have sex, so unless you want to tell them (and Granny and Grandad too) that they have to stop it, it's not the procreation thing. Gay people don't actually do anything that straight people don't do (though if anyone wants to set me straight here I would so like to hear about it...). So what is it then? I am really, genuinely wanting to hear if any religious person can make the argument and show me that Ben's no bigot.

Now I am sorry about this, really, (and soooo sorry that daftpunk flounced) but other than scripture saying it's wrong I am not sure I see the moral problem at all.

And anyway it's not fair to start referring to 'Leviticus' as the end-all or all you Catholics are gonna have to start keeping kosher homes and pay off those sinful mortgages on them.

So if Benny wants to make the law, let's see him give it his best shot.

And while we are at it, and before the Anglicans round here get to thinking we're all right, he's just piling in behind the Church of England on this one because the Lords Spiritual are leading the fight against the Equality Bill.

No benedict is not me
I really should read more of what he's said before I write more (but to be honest I'm pretty sure I'll be able to back it up whatever it is!) Practising homosexuality is against the belief of the Catholic Church so someone who openly practises it should not be setting an example to children who are being educated as Catholics - neither should anyone who flaunts any kind of sexuality for that matter. I doubt the pope has said that you have to prove you are heterosexual to be a teacher (!!), perhaps he just means you should keep quiet about your sexuality and not let it have any bearing on the job you are doing?

Right, natural law is defined as the state of nature, that is to be used as nature intended it.

Therefore a penis fits into a vagina for the purpose of making a baby.
A penis was not designed to be inserted into the anus or it would be thinner and more laxative shaped.

However the problem with this theory is that there has always been homosexuality in the animal kingdom. After all, certain species can change sex such as frogs and clown fish if there is a depletion in either sex.

Other animals are also prone to bouts of homosexuality.

Natural law was written by men who were no David Attenboroughs, such as Thomas Aquinas.

Natural law has found its way into legal terms and is even written into the US constitution. Because the actual philosophy does have a valid point, i.e. the penis is designed to fit into the vagina. But it should never be used as a rule of how people ought to conduct their lives.

Hahahaha, jooseyfruit, I've just choked on my G & T!!!

I'm not a big reader of the Bible, but I'm sure "love thy neighbour...unless he prefers Igglepiggle to UpsyDaisy" wasn't in there last time I looked