Faith schools should say homosexuality is normal..

[daftpunk]

Why can't people just leave us alone

"Where are people getting this stuff from?"

Well as I said above I'm getting it from the bible, but I think other poster might have a more recent and reliable source

I don't think anyone is saying they do, but some people seemt to think they should have the right to. Some most certainly think that it should never be mentioned at all, even obliquely.

Rereading that article the church seems to be saying that they are not putting down gays, but people who have sex outside marriage. Someone posted that further back too.

But they won't allow gays to BE married will they so any relationship a gay person has is a sin then right?

But even if we changed the civil partnership to call it 'marriage' that wouldn't be enough would it. Because they still wouldn't be married in a church.

Which leads to the conclusion that everyone married in a registry office is equally in the wrong in their eyes (or should be)

Not that you will listen, but the point of much of Leviticus from which that bit is taken [and it is the ONLY reference seemingly condemning homosexuality in the ENTIRE bible] is all about the Holiness Code, and the importance of ritual purity for ancient Israelites, sacrificial laws for example. Some theologists have said that a word for word translation from the original Hebrew makes the sentence this: "And with a male thou shalt not lie down in beds of a woman; it is an abomination. That is, "...

So it could be a directive for any homosexual acts to respect one's wife and take place outside the marriage bed. Many rules of ancient Hebrews were about keeping things separate, not mixing things, cloth could not be made of mixed materials, for example, crops could not be mixed.

Anyway, even if it does condemn homosexuality, all the rules in Leviticus are designed to separate the Israelites from the Canaanites who were seen as promiscuous shell fish eaters [amongst other things] Other laws in Leviticus include prohibiting the disabled from being priests,oh yes, and those with damaged testicles couldn't be priests either. And blasphemers being stoned to death. It is clearly nonsense to take that one passage and use it as evidence that because of it if you are a Christian you have to believe that homosexuality is wrong.

And lastly, Christ himself did not say homosexuality was wrong once. NOT ONE TIME. Quite important.

[falls on stony ground amongst atheists and christians alike]

I find that very interesting po, as an atheist.
Presuming you are a Catholic (?) are you offended by those who use faith or the Bible as a reason to condemn homosexuality? Is it insulting to you?

Genuine questions, I'm wondering.

I'm part of the LGBT group, and I do some work for the Church of England. They know, they're fine about it. Perhaps fine because I'm the "B" part of the LBGT acronym and ended up in a happy marriage to lovely dh who is definitely male. I have many gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgender friends and many straight ones. None are particularly any more promiscuous or evil than anyone else, to be honest. But the anti-gay minorities in faith groups can certainly cause havoc. We've just been through weeks of it on another message board before the management stepped in - but received just so very many messages of support from the board users, many of whom are members of clergy high and low.

I guess there will always be some who hate or fear difference.

I'm not a Catholic poo. I'm very keen on Jesus Christ though. Agnostic of sorts.

I find many atheists [not all obviously] and many fundamentalist christians have more in common than they would like to admit. Both tell liberal christians that they are not real christians unless they accept Creationism/Homosexuality is a sin/fill in blank here and any other slightly more sophisticated theological argument is met with a stone wall. I find that annoying.

the Catholic and Anglican churches would collapse without its gay clergy and parishioners. And you could forget about sacred music. They know this, they just want it to be unsaid, as has been tradition. Hypocrisy.

onagar, i think the 'wher epeople getting this nonsense from' was the idea that catholic schools promote homophobia.
ds1 attends a catholic school. I am not catholic but like it.dh is catholic and was always told that homosexually was not normal. Mind you I think we have all established that it is not normal. But what they taught dh was a bit stronger than that , I think.
catholic church's and schools do not do that these days.
as far as i know.

has anyone any evidence of catholic schools saying that homosexually is abnormal/wrong/ or anything else. actually encouraging homophobia ? becasue i just don't think catholic schools do, these days, do they ?

From the linked article;
"However, Mr Clegg's proposals were criticised as 'disturbing' by church leaders and MPs. A Church of England spokesman said: 'The Church's traditional teaching is that sex should be set within the framework of a faithful marriage, and sex education in church schools will be delivered within that context."

So sex education will teach that sex should only happen within a faithful marriage, and the church does not recognise gay unions as marriage. So presumably they will teach that gay sex is not allowed? Its not much of a leap to gay sex is immoral, to being gay is immoral....
What do faith schools teach in sex ed?

"It is clearly nonsense to take that one passage and use it as evidence that because of it if you are a Christian you have to believe that homosexuality is wrong"

Well my main point was that regardless of translations/interpretations the book as it stands now says to kill gay people.

Therefore for any follower of the bible to wonder why people think they might be anti-gay is ridiculous. It doesn't prove that they are, but it is reasonable grounds for suspecting the possibility.

Um... isn't this a bit of a non-story? The original statement that DP linked to?

Given that state-funded faith schools can't (and ime DON'T) legally say homosexuality is abnormal/a bad thing/sinful (or any more sinful than sex not for procreational purposes in the eyes of the Catholic church), Nick Clegg's statement is a bit of a sound-bite for maximum publicity with no actual substance behind it.

And please don't say 'us' when you take such a narrow-minded stance on behalf of Catholics, DP. You don't speak for me or any other Catholics I know. Particularly not DD's gay Godfather.

Like Aitch, our RE lessons at school were all about questioning the Church's teachings, encouraging us to think outside the dogma, also thinking about what JC would do. He certainly wouldn't be preaching hatred of others and if I thought for one minute that DD was being taught that kind of nonsense in her RC (private) school, I'd whisk her out into the local comp faster than you could blink.

So if this is really upsetting you so much, DP, why not do as my (uber-Catholic) mother suggests in these circumstances and offer your suffering up as a penance?

Especially just at the moment if you've heard that interview of Mrs Robinson being re-aired. Thank goodness she is not a typical Christian - but she's unfortunately part of the distribution of beliefs. Its astounding she remained in office after that abominable performance.

(that was responding to onager, not LoveCats very helpful suggestion )

Grimma, I'd forgotten about that. Such vile statements she made and then her husband saying "This is the Scriptures and it is a strange world indeed where somebody on the one hand talks about equality, but won’t allow Christians to have the equality, the right to speak, the right to express their views.”

I would like to know why DPs children will be loved and accepted if they are gay but everyone elses children are fair game for discrimination.If you are going to be prejucided at least be fair esp if you consider yourself so!

'regardless of tranlations the book as it stands now says to kill gay people'

It also says those with damaged testicles should not become priests. Where are the outraged protests demanding testicle inspection for all priests, pray?

read what I'm saying.

It is simply that you can't carry a book that says "kill gays" and claim to 'believe in it' and then act surprised/offended when someone suspects you might possibly be anti-gay.

The fact that it says a lot of other really dumb things has no bearing on the point that it does say this.

I am not responsible for how people work out in their head which bits they want to pretend not to see and which bits they will die for because it is the will of God/Allah.

If you can't understand or refuse to acknowledge that you have to understand Leviticus within the parameters of the culture within which it was written then obviously the discussion is a bit pointless. For you theologians should probably never get funding for their studies into the historical and cultural context of different scriptures and the complexity of various translations of ancient Hebrew and Greek because, hey, you know better.

And I'm not surprised. Just exasperated.

The Bible is equally condemning of those who eat prawns, but we don't leap about the place getting angry with people who have a prawn sandwich. It dismays me when people read a few words in the Bible out of the context of the time and place it was spoken in, and build a culture of hate out of it.
As a gay friend of mine recently said, "the Bible has six verses telling off gay people, and several thousand telling off heterosexual people. It's not that God loves Heterosexual people less, it's just that they need more guidance ". A joke, but one that has a slightly serious point to it.

What Amberlight and pofarced said.

Well for the benefit of the three of you I will post again what I said further up as maybe you missed what I was actually saying.

I am NOT saying the bible quote proves that all christians hate gay people.