Faith schools should say homosexuality is normal..

[daftpunk]

Why can't people just leave us alone

So what is Mr Clegg (and, therefore, DP) worried about?

If that is the case, then good, let's keep it that way!

"if a school or group of schools wants the "earnings" (the State's money) without doing the "work" (delivering certain key messages to its pupils)..."

Surely the "work" of a school should be about providing an education for its pupils, rather than indoctrinating them with the latest state ideology?

I dunno. I may be reading it wrong. It has been reported that faith schools can 'preach against' homosexuality, but errr that's against the law. Bear in mind that Catholic adoption agencies can't refuse gay couples, then you have a benchmark of what would be unacceptable under the anti-discrimination laws. Perhaps some schools aren't brilliant at delivering the message (although I still maintain that if we, as a society, actually gave a toss about each other it wouldn't need to be an issue to be brought up in the first place). Not that any of this directly affects me, though . My kids don't go to school. Off now, to take them to their (secular, extremely mixed) HE group. Where they learn that everyone's different, and that's a GOOD thing. Takes all sorts to make a world, and all that

No offense I hope, Monkey? Late at night one doesn't always choose words as tactfully as one might.

Completely missing the point, Harpy, again. I have no desire to silence anyone, as I have always said, I believe anyone can say what they like, and I can shout how unreasonable they are. Thats free speech at its best, you say one thing, I say you're wrong, thats how it works, I have never said anyone should be silenced. Drowned out by a more sensible opinion perhaps.

And yes, DP has often said how gay people should hide themselves away, remember how them gay teachers shouldn't be allowed to speak about themselves at all in case mini-punks hear anything about their gayness and it rubs off?

Daftpunk and others are fully entitled to believe that anything is abnormal, and even say so. But they should not get to decide what taxpayer funded schools get to teach, especially when they want them to teach bigotry and intolerance.

And sexuality isn't a type of behaviour, as has been pointed out to you before, its not how you behave, its what you ARE. You aren't gat because you have sex with the same gender, theres much much more to it than that.

"It has been reported that faith schools can 'preach against' homosexuality, but errr that's against the law."

Are you suggesting that preaching against homosexuality is against the law in general? because it most certainly isn't.
If you are talking about teachers preaching that it's wrong to children then it may possibly be due to a their position of power and relevant legislation (I'm not familiar with UK law in this area)

"Surely the "work" of a school should be about providing an education for its pupils, rather than indoctrinating them with the latest state ideology?"

Quite right. While we're on the subject, why can't they teach the message "Blacks go home!" like in the good old days instead of this "indoctrination" that all races are equal?

It's political correctness gone mad, I tells ya.

I'd also like to see primary schools move away from the "ideology" of Newtonian physics in favour of teaching quantum physics. Sure, it'll be hard for the kids, but if you deny me that, then what price free speech?

Anyhow, I was thinking about the OP - as I think its a question which we haven't entirely addressed, and I'll take it at face value that DP wanted us to.

'Why can't people just leave us alone?'

I think perhaps in this case its because of the triangle DP herself described - home-church-faith school. This can lead to insularity [not inevitably, but it can]. Quite a number of religious leaders - not just RC, not just Christian - take overtly or implicitly homophobic positions. This may be refuted, supported or ignored in the home, and its none of our business which. So that leaves the school as the only place to redress the balance. Education should include teaching children about the values of our society and how we expect people to be treated.

This survey (from The Observer, 2008 - not the Daily Mail, 1963) suggests that "despite the gradual absorption of gay culture into the mainstream, many Britons still vehemently oppose homosexuality."

With this in mind, surely there is something questionable about the State using "state money" - i.e. taxpayers money - to force schools to pass on "certain key messages", when those "messages" are not necessarily condoned by a majority of the electorate?

(As I said earlier, I don't think schools should be in the business of indoctrination in any case.)

apart from the adoption issue, the majorities were on the pro-gay side of the question so you're building a case on somewhat dodgy foundations.

Scarlet

That is a misrepresentation of what is already a summary.

The survey you link to shows that 1 in 4 believe that homosexual sex should be made illegal. While I find that number frighteningly high (and the opinion itself ridiculous) I am forced to acknowledge that 1 in 4 is by a large margin a MINORITY.

The question as to whether homosexuality was normal and harmless (Clegg's view) was apparently not asked.

" why can't they teach the message "Blacks go home!" "

Because that would be another form of indoctrination?

Maybe one day the BNP will come to power and they'll choose to indoctrinate our children (through schools) with just that sort of message. It's sad that they would have such a strong precedent for doing so.

What you don't seem to "get" is that some people find the idea of "teaching" that homosexuality is "normal" to be offensive. But it seems that that fact doesn't matter - because you don't agree with them, because your "offence" is greater than theirs, because...?

Grimma - none taken -
(shall stick to style and beauty from now on though!)

Your sexuality is not a behaviour. That is made up by bigots to make out gay people can choose to be gay. You don't choose to be gay any more than you choose to be heterosexual.

And I know gay priests who are celibate.

No it isn't browbeating, its democracy in action, its free speech at its best. You prefer to let hatred go unchallenged? do you believe in nothing?

My "case" is that the schools should concentrate on educating children, not on passing on the latest fashions in prejudice and value judgements.

MIFLAW said that church schools shouldn't get state money if they were not prepared to pass on state propaganda in return (paraphrasing).

I questioned this on the basis that the "state's money" is actually taxpayer's money, and it is by no means clear cut that taxpayers, on the whole, are in agreement with current state orthodoxy. The summary of the poll findings was the Observer's interpretation of the data rather than my own.

The fact that everyone deserves basic human respect and the right not to told they are abnormal and wrong is a "fashion"?

If state propaganda is that its not acceptable to teach hatred and bigotry then I'm fine with it.

MIFLAW was the first to make the comparison with "Blacks go home", not me. I merely responded to her post.

"some people are gay, it is natural and acceptable, is NOT indoctrination. It is a fact. Not a belief"

Acceptable to whom? Whether something is "acceptable" or not is a value judgement, not a fact. We all know the Pope doesn't find homosexuality acceptable. Nor do most muslims. Nor do a significant proportion of the UK population.

As it happens, I personally do find homosexuality "acceptable". That's my opinion. Nevertheless, I don't accept the "state" has any place in indoctrinating my children with its own "take" on this or similar matters. I see it as a step towards totalitarianism. (Maybe I've been reading too much Orwell of late )

Nor do muslims? Are you for real? Are you seriously saying that all muslims find homosexuality is "unacceptable"? Because you are very very wrong.

It doesn't matter whether or not you, or I, or anyone thinks that being gay is acceptable or not. Its like saying its acceptable or not that it rains. It just DOES, and gay people just ARE, and its not really a matter of value judgements or not.

"everyone deserves basic human respect and the right not to told they are abnormal and wrong"

What, everyone? Surely some people are indeed abnormal and wrong? Necrophiliacs, for example. Those committing incest, as another example. I'm sure you can think of others.

You might be fine with state propaganda now... but what about when it is promoting other messages, ones you don't necessarily accord with? I gave the example before about what if we had a BNP government... would you still be happy then? Or some sort of Stalinist regime? The more people willingly cede their power to the state, the more power the state will take - and the harder it will be to wrest it back.