Faith schools - the JFS verdict is in - I have a question...

[ImSoNotTelling]

here for anyone who has been following this.

The courts have decided that JFS were acting unlawfully in refusing a place to a child on the grounds that his mother was not recognised as jewish by the orthodox church.

I have a question though. This ruling says that the school were discriminating on the grounds of ethniciy, and that is unlawful. But then why is it lawful for schools to discriminate on the grounds of religion? I thought it was illegal to discriminate against someone due to their religious beliefs?

donnie agree with you. The problem is that in some areas where the majority of schools are faith schools, if you don't do the religion you end up with something hugely inconvenient, really crap, or no school place at all.

When faced with go to church or have no school place, most people think of their children and go to church. I agree that it is extremely unetical, hypocritical and morally totally wrong. However people will usually try to do the best for their children and I find it hard when people can't understand that. People who don't understand it usually come from places where there is a good choice of schools though i guess.

The problem is with the system frankly, as we were discussing earlier. Individuals can't be blamed for trying to do the best for their children, although it is totally unfair on people with genuine faith.

The catholic thing - I would disagree that it is hard at all to exploit the system. All of my friends and acquaintances are...

Zazioma the midrash is here www.hebrew4christians.com/Holidays/Spring_Holidays/Shavuot/shavuot.html

under Midrashim about tablets.

What midrash does is try to explain the meaning of the bible. They tend to come in the form of sometimes amusing, sometimes strange tales and are not meant to be literally. I think (although may be wrong) that the point about this one which explains the phrase "we will do and we will obey" is trying to explain why this statement was used and is implying that the whole basis of Judaism must be accepted wholly and unequivocally without picking and choosing and saying you don't like one bit so you'll just discard it. It could also mean what an incredibly difficult thing it is to accept all the commandments and there's probably many more levels of meaning buried in it.

Regarding your comment on your ILs - IME people who are not religious tend to concentrate more on the racial and cultural aspects of being Jewish because that is what they have left.

HTH

Should have read "not to be taken literally

"...if people want to have their religion as a framework for schooling, then why not?"

Well, it becomes harmful when some are excluded because they are not deemed Jewish or Christian enough. I simply think religious education shouldn't be paid for by the state and then expensive court cases like the JFS example would not happen either. Well, not at our cost.

Educators should stick to educating and not creating ghettos within ghettos. (a rabbi said this in the paper on Saturday - can't remember his name so can't ref. properly sorry but I thoroughly agree with him.)

Who the hell is anybody to say that their personal faith isn't good enough? Sod off and pay for it yourself then before you start dictating to other people what is and isn't religious enough.

Donnie, it is not in the least impossible to exploit the system re Catholic schools and admissions. I could have done it myself and often wish I had.

No need for any more hoops. It's very simple really. Just stop this horribly divisive situation where church state schools are allowed to select children according to their own criteria while the community schools are not. All state schools should have to use the same admissions procedure.

And do remember there is nothing to stop non orthodox jews setting up their own state schools with their own non racist rules just like we have both Catholic and C of E schools and even in my local area now a hindu school.

Anyway any alpha woman with a decent well paid job knows that all the state religious schools of all kinds do worse than the best academdic day schools. You only go to JFS if you're too poor and too thick to get into St Paul's etc etc. Ditto for the other religions.

Thanks for that insightful contribution, Xenia. Bored this evening?

yes like my sister who got into north london collegiate and south hampstead and went to jfs because that's where her friends were going, my mother liked mixed education and my father wanted a Jewish one. Or the numerous girls each year who would turn down henrietta barnet places (free and good results) to go to jfs. Not everyone fits into your neat boxes Xenia.

I've spoken to a girl who was leaving Hasmodean etc wanting NLCS (where one of my daughters went) for the relative freedom. On the whole you tend to get better A levels at NLCS and I prefer single sex schools; surely they're more religiously better though than mixed?

I would agree that most of the good private schools have better teaching and will be able to turn around a better product for those in the average category. They also give much more assistance in preparation for oxbridge. However, if you're bright you'll do well nearly everywhere.

Also the majority of the women I know who've gone on to compete successfully in male environments tend not to have come from those type of schools. I know a number from south hampstead and NLCS who tried law and banking and then threw it up for something more arty. Maybe not having the advantages and knowing it makes you more competitive? Or maybe because they come from wealthier backgrounds they have less pressure to become self sufficient as there will always be someone to take care of the finances?

Private vs state can be a whole new thread though....

Indeed. My mother always says she could teach us religion at home and in church and in fact there are no good English Catholic schools at all. Compare Stonyhurst with say Eton or St Paul's - there is no comparison.