Faith schools - the JFS verdict is in - I have a question...

[ImSoNotTelling]

here for anyone who has been following this.

The courts have decided that JFS were acting unlawfully in refusing a place to a child on the grounds that his mother was not recognised as jewish by the orthodox church.

I have a question though. This ruling says that the school were discriminating on the grounds of ethniciy, and that is unlawful. But then why is it lawful for schools to discriminate on the grounds of religion? I thought it was illegal to discriminate against someone due to their religious beliefs?

It is round here too. Take my neighbours for instance. Muslim, non mosque attending send their child to a RC school hace to prove they attend mosque for a certain amount of days.

My sister has to attend shul for a certain amount of days.

My quick fire questions??

who begat who?
what is the real meaning of smote??

Many christians do not actively worship, or they worship at home, however they will not be able to go to a school of their faith under those conditions. If they want their children to go to a christian school then they have to go to church, even if that is not their normal practice.

I have been having a look at the entrance criteria for the Jewish primary schools in the area (it's a document I always have at my fingertips ) and yes at the moment it is simply being recognised as Jewish by the orthodox church. Which brings us full circle to the original question. As it means that people born into a faith but who have completely turned their backs on it will have more claim than someone active in the religion who attends every week etc.

I guess this decision will have a big impact on all of the schools.

ROFL @ who begat who?

You're in!

This is all very interesting because it is all about the question of how you define a jewish person. Many jewish people are pround to be jewish, and enjoy their cultural identity, but eat bacon and rarely go to synagogue. But they would still define themselves as being jewish. It is nothing to do with whether you practice the religion. I have jewish friends who married out of the religion, never stepped in a shul since, did not circumcise their sons etc, but they would still define themselves as being jewish. It is unfair that their child could get into the school if the mum was jewish, whereas someone else with only jewish father and within a family that actively practices the religion could not get into the school. The problem that has happened would probably only arise in this country because the JFS is such a good school compared to a lot of other state comprehensives. It will now be even more oversubsribed as more children will be eligible to get in.

I'm not sure more children would be eligible to get in, since I understand the admissions criteria has recently changed to allow entry to a child currently undergoing Orthodox conversion. Anyone know what it looks like for a child to undergo Orthodox conversion?

It's not just judaism that has a strong identity though. I have many irish and italian friends who would strongly identify themselves as roman catholic despite not having set foot in a church since they were children, and in many cases having huge issues with what goes on and has gone on with the church. But they are still catholic - it's what they are.

Hence the church attendance criteria. I suppose the equivalent to having a jewish mother would be having been baptised in RC church. I agree it would not be fair for someone who simply has a jewish mother/been baptised/whatever the criteria is to be given preference over someone who is practicing the faith week in week out, but whose parents did not fit the bill/think to get them baptised.

I think the argument that judaism is a different religion and so rules must be different doesn't work. Where schools are oversubscribed, and they are faith schools, funded wholly or partially with public money, the entrance criteria must be fair and lawful.

If religious schools want to decide who is enough of their faith to attend, then I feel they shouldn't be paid for by the state.

You want a religious education, pay for it yourself. That goes for all religions.

Although as I mentioned earlier on, I'm not a fan of faith schools anyway, and think that religious entry criteria for state schools are unfair.

I suspect this view may be shaped by living in a London Borough where the majority of primary schools have faith based entry criteria, so people either have to find God one way or another, or face a trek halfway across the Borough. Whoever earlier said the more faith schools the merrier, i couldn't agree less.

Sorry going off at a tangent with my personal gripe there.

I think it's pretty straightforward to be baptised as an older child or even adult in the RC, or COE for that matter, so you don't 'miss the boat' in any way if you weren't baptised as an infant (though you don't get the cute clothes and silver comb.)

And as I mentioned before, I believe baptism is a condition for full practice.

It was more of an example IYSWIM but yes that's true zazizoma. You can get baptised later but you can't change your parentage.

Although a friend (RC) did tell me the other day that her dad had come back from the pub and said that if the children weren't baptised within a year it didn't count. I questioned whether the pope always issues new edicts via the Green Dragon on the High Road....

Oh, more schools the merrier was me . . . I stand by that but I certainly don't believe you should have to trek to find a non-faith school. Someone isn't zoning correctly.

I am sorry but attending shul does not a good Jew make. There are a legion of laws, values, ethics and practices that should be practised and shul attendance is not the deciding marker. I have an incredibly strong identity yet do not like participating in synagogue for a number of reasons. So to suggest that I send my children to faith schools just becuase it got good academic reports really annoys me. I know plenty of families like me who identify as Jewish strongly and do not like being told how to practise our faith. So sorry I think the rules need to be different. As I said earlier what of religions that pray at home, how would such rules apply to them? You do not need to attend shul to pray to God. Some of you seem to think that the vast majority of children going to these faith schools come from families who couldn't give a stuff about the faith, well that is not my experience at all.

The more I think about it, the more I think this is a huge problem, isn't it. The entry criteria will need to be redefined to fit in with the legal ruling, but that strikes to the heart of what it is to be Jewish.

What's going to happen?

What it is to be Jewish as defined by the orthodox church I mean.

What's zoning zazizoma?

Emily, you are so right. But at the moment, shul attendance seems to be the plimsoll line so to speak.

That is exactly it, this is a huge problem and not just for the Jewish faith. Who defines the religion and how is that enforced - the first step on a worrying sliding scale.

Oh and i forgot to say about my friend who is RC and has to go to church a number of days as well.

If people want their children to go to faith schools surely they should prescribe to a faith whatever that may be?

Emily i stil can't see why it is different. In your post the word Jew could be replaced with the word christian all the way through and it would still be correct. Many families want their children to have a good Christian schooling but for whatever reason do not wish to participate in formal worship themselves.

Thanks Winky. I just really resent being told how to prove myself a worthy jew so my children can attend school. I would like to make some "worthy" shul goers fit my criteria for what constitutes a "good" Jew.

Especially since so many just attend on yom tov.

Not that I care but shul attendance as a result hardly seems to be be great way to evaluate one's religious devotion..........

I'm making an assumption that someone is looking at the big picture of what state schools are available in any given area in order to meet the needs of that area. If your area is all faith schools and not many secular schools, that suggests to me a zoning imbalance. It's a technical term used in America, but I don't know what they call it here.

As I've ranted on other threads, I believe there should be a choice of focuses and methodologies in state schools, a diversity that offers parents true choice, but it needs to be balanced per area so that one don't have to trek to far to avoid a specialty offering.

But I am not saying Christians should have to go to church either. As a non-Christian I have little idea how followers of Christianity practice. Just because one system is wrong and yet people continue it, does that make it right to inflict the same system on another faith. I really am not going to go into the myriad of Jewish law and ethics to explain my particular stance on Judaism. Good grief that has been debated for over 2,000 years and there is still a million answers.

In a world where schools are oversubscribed they have to have some way of deciding which children to take.

What would your preferred way be Emily, or is it just that the attendance thing gets your goat? I agree that just because one religion has chosen criteria where you have to go and worship with a certain frequency, doesn't mean that has to be the same for all. I just can't see what else can be done, in light of this ruling.