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Original poster

Faith schools - the JFS verdict is in - I have a question...

136 replies

ImSoNotTelling · 16/12/2009 11:58

here for anyone who has been following this.

The courts have decided that JFS were acting unlawfully in refusing a place to a child on the grounds that his mother was not recognised as jewish by the orthodox church.

I have a question though. This ruling says that the school were discriminating on the grounds of ethniciy, and that is unlawful. But then why is it lawful for schools to discriminate on the grounds of religion? I thought it was illegal to discriminate against someone due to their religious beliefs?

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Original poster
ImSoNotTelling · 17/12/2009 22:31

x-posts what to do?

Christian church has gone for frequency of attendance as bums on seats looks good and adds £££ to the collection IMO, although I may be cynical...

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EmilyStrange · 17/12/2009 22:32

It seems there is an acceptance of hypocrisy. So if you attend a place of worship for so long etc then your kids can join the school. So many families attend and do they feel spiritual when they attend, nope they stand there bored until they can go home. It is a ridiculous way to assess one's identity.

ItsGrimUpNorth · 17/12/2009 22:32

Could they not interview the children to investigate their religious knowledge? Obviously depending on the age of the child but a child from an observant background would know lots from their home life. Also, home visits which are done by secular state school primary teachers....

The state shouldn't be paying for religious schools, mind. R.E. in schools is fine but beyond that, it's the individual's responsibility.

Original poster
ImSoNotTelling · 17/12/2009 22:33

zazizoma yes, we need some athiest, non denominational or even normal community schools around here to balance things out a bit!

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Original poster
ImSoNotTelling · 17/12/2009 22:37

Itsgrimupnorth around here you would have people erecting chapels in their back gardens and religion flash-cards for 6 months + would be available in all the local shops

I suppose the way around the hypocricy is:

-stop publishing the league tables
-make all schools really good so there is no advantage to faith school other than the faith for those who genuinely believe
-abolish state sponsored faith schools

um sure there are some more.

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zazizoma · 17/12/2009 22:39

I would like to suggest at this point that the question of who is deemed religious enough to attend a faith school is actually a red herring. I believe that these schools are oversubscribed NOT because there are so many RCs desperate for their children to get a solid Christian education, but because by their very nature schools where the parents are involved enough in their children's education to work for admission are more likely to be better schools than those with parents who couldn't give a flip. In this context, declaring a religion becomes a hoop to jump through, but the real goal is a better ed. If this issue was not present, then faith schools could truly be serving those people like Emily and others who simply want a religious ed for their dc.

zazizoma · 17/12/2009 22:41

Goodness ImSo we x-d posts saying the same thing. Well done; you said it better.

Original poster
ImSoNotTelling · 17/12/2009 22:48

Well that's solved that problem then

Now where are we going to get the money to build all these extra schools, and improve all the ones that already exist...

I am still interested in what people think the Jewish schools are going to do in light of this ruling. Emily's points are good and she is rightly angry at the suggestion that she "prove" she and her children are "proper" Jews. But they are going to have to do something after this, aren't they.

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EmilyStrange · 17/12/2009 22:51

Actually I agree the real solution is to make sure there are far more really good non-denominational schools, although in my area there are quite a few great primary schools. It is secondary that is the real problem. Just to let you know that in the state sponsored faith schools I know the parents have to pay for the extra religious education. The state only pays for what they would always pay for. All the extra faith teachers and corresponding educational materials have to be paid for by the families.

frogs · 17/12/2009 22:53

zazizoma, you are wrong about not missing out if you're baptised later. Some schools have now started insisting that the child was baptised before the age of 1. One school I know of even instists on baptism having taken place before the age of 6 months.

Unfortunately these policies were not in place 10 years ago when the current crop of secondary school entrants were born, so quite a lot of devoutly practising families have been caught out because they delayed baptism for perfectly legitimate reasons (family illness, waiting for family or godparents to return to the UK etc) without realising that ten years down the line it would affect their child's options for secondary school entry.

It's all a mess, really.

EmilyStrange · 17/12/2009 22:57

It is a mess and it has all made me think even more about my choices, and believe me I overthink it all anyway. So out of curiosity what are the arguments against faith schools. I worry about banning them as I think it can become extreme such as French schools refusing the hijab.

Original poster
ImSoNotTelling · 17/12/2009 22:57

I suspect that a persons take on this issue is strongly influenced by where in the country they live. The percentage of faith schools, the entrance criteria and (from what Emily says) even the curriculum content seem to differ wildly.

I just happen to live in an extremely spiritual area and my views are strongly shaped by that.

As an aside, should I be concerned that DH should have been home 1/2 hour ago, he is driving and I have just relaised that there is about an inch of snow settled outside...

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Original poster
ImSoNotTelling · 17/12/2009 23:02

frogs so what my mates dad heard in the pub may have been right after all.

That is just terrible. Nowhere in the bible does it say there is a time limit on baptism. IIRC they were dead keen on baptising anyone and everyone, irrespective of age etc. How can they impose a rule like that for schools, when it is not a general rule of that religion.

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EmilyStrange · 17/12/2009 23:04

The traffic always slows down hugely when the weather is like this so it is no surprise he is late. Plus he will be driving slower and I hope the grit lorries may be out causing hold ups. I don't think you need to be worried.

Original poster
ImSoNotTelling · 17/12/2009 23:07

Personally I don't think faith schools should be banned, but I don't think they should receive public funding. For every person pretending to be religious to get their child into a good faith school, there is another in a small village where the only school is CofE and they are a different religion or athiest, also unhappy.

As frogs says, it all seems such a mess.

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Original poster
ImSoNotTelling · 17/12/2009 23:07

He just got in

Gridlock at apex corner if anyone's interested

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EmilyStrange · 17/12/2009 23:11

Apex corner goes into gridlock when there is a few stray leaves floating about.

The problem with no state funding is that poorer people who wish for that education would be penalised.

Original poster
ImSoNotTelling · 17/12/2009 23:18

you're not wrong. It seems to be a place that lorries go to jack-knife as well (do they still do that? I haven't heard a drivetime thing say jack-knifed lorry at apex corner for ages!)

They would be penalised that they would not be able to attend a religious school. Although some religions seem to run their own schools privately and the children just go to them - guessing that only works with smaller religions though.

They would however get a good broad non-denominational education (in theory) and would still get the religious aspect at home, in their community, at their place of worship etc etc.

The problem arises when people's religion permeates their whole life to such an extent that it is not that compatible with mainstream school, or that a mainstream education does not instil the values they want instilled etc.

Then you do get into the whole france thing.

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EmilyStrange · 17/12/2009 23:22

I guess for me I didn't want to add to what I see as an already long and heavy day by having my children attend extra-curricular activities to ensure they received the extra faith content I wished for them. Faith schools addressed this concern and if they were private I would not be able to afford them. FWIW I also think it is important to get a broad multi-cultural outlook so I encourage non-Jewish friends. It is hard acheiving the balance you would like.

frogs · 17/12/2009 23:37

I'mNotTelling -- they quote a canon law paragraph which says that parents will seek baptism for their child in the first weeks of life.

But there has never been any official time limit and indeed some parishes may force a delay in baptism by insisting that parents attend a baptism preparation course before they will set a date for the child to be baptised. And these courses are only held a few times a year. Go figure.

Original poster
ImSoNotTelling · 17/12/2009 23:44

Just been thinking about how I drove through stamford hill recently at school time and all the Hasidic children were going to school.

Now does it bother me if hasidic jews want to learn together in a hasidic school, which espouses their vaules etc. The answer is no, it doesn't bother me at all. Googling quickly though it seems most of their schools are private anyway. Also thinking about the exclusive brethren (local branch of christianity) and how their beliefs impact their experience of education, as they usually are educated in normal state schools despite having to opt out of a lot of the curriculum. (they used to anyway, it's been a while since I was at school )

It all throws up a lot of questions, about national curriculum and state funding and things, but my brain is too tired to think of them at the moment. I just deleted a rather garbled post!

Maybe we can pick this up tomorrow

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Original poster
ImSoNotTelling · 17/12/2009 23:45

frogs - thanks for that. It is a mess isn't it.

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Original poster
ImSoNotTelling · 17/12/2009 23:47

Also thinking about the arguments that are commonly made against faith schools - about non integration etc. Just putting it down so i can think with my brain tomorrow.

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EmilyStrange · 18/12/2009 00:02

Yes My brain is mush at the best of times but I can feel my hot water bottle calling. This has been interesting though and imbetween snowmen and snowballs I will check back. I must reserve my energy for the snow, so excited!

caramelwaffle · 18/12/2009 00:30

A local (RC) school has, this year, brought in the tie breaker which looks at the earliest time the children recieved the Sacraments i.e. Baptism: so all other things being equal between applicants for a school place, the child who was baptised the earliest would be placed on roll.

My feeling, following this judgment, is that Jewish school admission processes will look more and more akin to Catholic school admission processes.
Perhaps even more difficult: the mother MUST be Jewish and parent and child(dren) must attend a place of worship monthly/weekly/daily etc

Oh and give extra help at the Synagouge regularly too