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Faith schools - the JFS verdict is in - I have a question...

136 replies

ImSoNotTelling · 16/12/2009 11:58

here for anyone who has been following this.

The courts have decided that JFS were acting unlawfully in refusing a place to a child on the grounds that his mother was not recognised as jewish by the orthodox church.

I have a question though. This ruling says that the school were discriminating on the grounds of ethniciy, and that is unlawful. But then why is it lawful for schools to discriminate on the grounds of religion? I thought it was illegal to discriminate against someone due to their religious beliefs?

OP posts:
we3kingbeat23oforientare · 17/12/2009 15:01

FWIW - from what I have been led to believe, the fact was that they hadn't attended Synagogue enough.

My brother and sister both send thier children to Jewish faith schools (not JFS) and because of this very case, there has been a request that they attend synagogue for a certain amount of days per year...almost to prove that they are worthy of sending their children to a faith school.

Not sure how I feel about this TBH. I was brought up in the reform side of judaism which is far more relaxed in the main. My DP is Catholic and even though I no longer practise, or even believe, I still would class myself as Jewish. Trying to explain to my DP that our DD is Jewish, no matter what, is somehow unbelievable to him and perhaps many others....

I don't know...having only skim-read this thread and about to read the links

zazizoma · 17/12/2009 15:26

Lily, I actually read that through to consequences at the expense of tonights supper. Thanks for the link.

edam · 17/12/2009 16:35

We3King - nope, the child was refused on the grounds that he wasn't Jewish enough by birth (i.e. his mother had converted), nothing to do with observance.

From Lily's link - the Supreme Court held that: "The fact that a decision to discriminate on racial grounds is based upon a devout, venerable and sincerely held religious belief or conviction cannot inoculate or excuse such conduct from liability under the 1976 Act" (Race Relations Act).

we3kingbeat23oforientare · 17/12/2009 16:57

Yeah, thanks for that Edam - looked at the links after posting , whoops!!

Not Jewish enough....hmm.....how would they see me I wonder, or my child, or my grandchildren (to be)...probably not Jewish enough TBH. My father isn't Jewish, My DP isn't Jewish but my mother and my brothers and sisters are...how do I fit in???

JFS and the OCR need to look at the way that modern Judaism has changed and to be tolerant of the fact that many people have decided to convert either to or indeed away from the faith and to accept all with open arms if they are ever to progress forward.

edam · 17/12/2009 17:54

Oh, you'd be fine, apparently if your mother is Jewish (and presumably her mother was) you are in!

My friends are a (male) Jewish/(female) gentile couple. Their sons attend the local synagogue and have starring roles in plays about Esther (dunno the details), no-one turns them away because their mother isn't Jewish (hasn't converted, either). Guess it must be Reform or Progressive.

Good job too or the synagogue would be missing out on some serious talent, the eldest boy currently has a starring role on the West End stage!

MrsFlittersnoop · 17/12/2009 18:10

I was very surprised to read that JFS describes itself as Orthodox in practice.

2 of DS's former schoolmates from his primary (non-denominational community) school went to JFS. In both cases only the mother was Jewish, and both mothers regarded themselves as "cultural" Jews and were not particularly observant (i.e. non-kosher households). One mum told me they only ever went to Synagogue for family Bar Mitvahs and weddings etc. Both families chose JFS for their DCs because it had a good academic reputation.

tigger15 · 17/12/2009 18:16

The difficulty is there are effectively two definitions of being Jewish. There is the purely racial one, which comes up when anti-semitism knocks and is defined purely on an ethnicity basis e.g. Hitler if one of your grandparents is Jewish. You can be discriminated against for being Jewish whether the OCR recognises you as Jewish or not.

Then there is the religious one. Even the reform in this country (not the USA) define being Jewish as through matrileneal descent. I can't remember the figure from the judgment but it's either 92 or 95% of the world's Jews define in this way. The reason why it is not "racism" in the common use of the word is because someone who is born to a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother or non-orthodox convert can change their status by converting. If it is purely by descent then it would not be possible to do so. For example if you wanted to change from white skinned to black, you could grow as many dreadlocks as you like and tar your skin but you would never truly be black.

A child of a non-Jewish mother and Jewish father can convert. I have known people who have done this and the orthodox conversion process is usually shorter and easier because there is often a recognition that they are coming from a different background. That is the case in this country which has one of the most draconian conversion processes.

The difference between reform and orthodoxy when reform started in the 19th century was so great that Christianity had more in common with orthodox Judaism. Even nowadays in terms of belief the dichotomy between orthodoxy and reform is not incomparable to prostestants and catholics. Orthodoxy goes by the belief that the Torah was given to be obeyed both oral and written law which are of divine origin. Reform as it has been explained to me by its practitioners is that these laws are more of social context and should be treated accordingly. That's quite a difference.

The attitude to converts is as much historically defined as anything else. At one point converts were encouraged but as a result of living amongst hostile nations where Jews were persecuted for practice and even more so for recruitment it turned inwards and the focus was more on other Jews and converts were discouraged for communal protection as well as fears of people using it as a front to discredit the community. Saying which that is not a reason to maintain it and not to make it easier. The key part of conversion is determining the sincere intent of the convert. That is the aim behind the process. If it is made really easy how could you tell who was just converting to get into a good school?

One of the other basic tenets is that once Jewish and born that way you cannot lose it even if you convert. This is why a catholic convert (ie Jewish converted to catholicism) would have been able to get into JFS under the old rules. The basis of this would be that their child is Jewish and it is the duty of the school to try and give them an understanding of this. I don't know if it ever happened (I went there for 5 years) but I'd imagine despite it being fine on paper the school might still be worried of the effect that child's parent would have on other children friendly with the child.

We3king you are Jewish according to halacha and the OCR. It is fine saying everyone should be modern and tolerant but from my understanding the decision to enforce the orthodox definition of Jews throughout schools in this country was done partly because of the oversubscription issues but also because the OCR has moved to the right over the last 20-30 years and this was seen as a way of combatting assimilation and intermarriage. In the 1950s there were around 500,000 Jews in this country. The number now is closer to 200,000 despite the birth rate having increased amongst the orthodox. The reasons given for this are mainly assimilation, intermarriage and general apathy.

I don't know if applying this rule was the best way to go about combatting the problem but sitting back in tolerant fashion will not resolve anything. The loss of a Jew in this way is considered a loss to the entire Jewish people and an impediment in bringing religious completeness. It is a good thing to accept everyone with open arms but if what they are doing is fundamentally opposed to what you view as right then you would be failing in your duty by letting them believe they are on the same page as you.

JFS always has been populated by kids whose parents are more concerned with them marrying and socialising with other Jews and getting a Jewish identity than religion. Frankly that is more racist in my view then if they wanted them to marry other Jews on the basis that you should marry another Jew because that is what is required under Jewish law.

I have no idea what the OCR will now do about school entry but judging by the primary school entry forms, the questions have become truly horrendous!

In conclusion I think the judgment is wrong in not differentiating between these two definitions of Jewish - the ethnic and the religious but taken to its logical extremes I don't think the previous rules were fair.

The unfortunate irony of this whole saga is the first non-orthodox/cross-communal Jewish secondary school was due to open September 2010 with the intention of prioritising non-orthodox Jews. As a result of the judgment this would now be indirect racism as it is a matter of birth that makes these kids non-orthodox.

Do you think this post would qualify as an entry for a Jewish school now?

zazizoma · 17/12/2009 18:17

What would be the motivation for Orthodox Jewry to "progress forward?" Wouldn't that be a denial of their beliefs? Check out the quotes from Deuteronomy at the top of the Supreme Court decision . . .

tigger15 · 17/12/2009 18:17

Can I have an award for longest post of the thread

edam · 17/12/2009 19:08

"this was seen as a way of combatting assimilation and intermarriage" - I'm sorry but that clearly is racist.

zazizoma · 17/12/2009 19:22

I'm fine with the desire for racial and ethnic integrity maintained by the Orthodox Jews, I would just like for this stance to be clearer to non-Jews when issues such as EU support for Zionism arises. I believe that Israeli citizenship is based on matrilineal heredity and Orthodox conversion.

Tigger, you'll see from the decision report that the court was attempting to make the distinction between religion and ethnicity, but the rabbis who sent letters to explain their positions all maintained that becoming Jewish was about becoming one with the "Jewish people," and therefore was indeed racial/ethnic. The fact that if your mother is Jewish you are inescapably Jewish goes a long way toward promoting the right of a "people" over the right of an "individual." Indeed, in your post you speak of "the problem" of a declining Orthodox Jewish population. Why is this a problem?

ImSoNotTelling · 17/12/2009 19:53

Great post thanks tigger.

The new school that you mention is fairly near us, it is interesting the effect that this judgement will have given that the aim of the school was to cater towards the wider jewish community. Your points about decreasing numbers according to OCR - intermarriage etc are very interesting. My school was about 50% jewish and there was a definite distinction between the jewish children and the half jewish ones. Also people were very open about "marrying out" - whether they would ever consider it and what it would mean if they did etc. So I suppose that if people become more relaxed about "marrying out" combined with OCR moving further to the right, "official" numbers will continue to decline, even if people are still practicing and see themselves as Jewish. PLus that also ties in with the whole question - who you marry is important in Judaism, it is more than simply a matter of faith.

Thinking about a conversation with a friend at work, her children (Jewish) go to a RC school. I asked how that was and she just shrugged, not a problem. There has been a lot of watering down maybe in the last few decades, with all religions in the UK, I wonder if recent world events and the spotlight turning to religion more will mean that people start to take a more traditional stance again...

OP posts:
edam · 17/12/2009 21:08

Could the apparent decline in the Jewish population be explained partly by emigration to Israel, I wonder? Especially since the peak population seems to have been in the 50s?

Also think 'before you leap into bed with a gentile, remember your kids won't be able to go to the JFS' is probably not the strongest marketing campaign ever. People fall in love with other people - while culture and social norms may mean lots of them stick to 'their own' when it comes to marriage, plenty won't, especially if you live among a diverse population (as opposed to, e.g. Afghanistan, where the price of apostacy is death so the chances of anyone meeting and marrying a non-Muslim are fairly low).

edam · 17/12/2009 21:10

America too. If peak numbers were not long after WW2, could be due to refugees from Europe having fled Hitler, living in Britain temporarily and then emigrating - to Israel or the U.S. (thinking of Jerry Springer, for instance).

zazizoma · 17/12/2009 21:15

gentile is polite, I'm more used to goya . . .

we3kingbeat23oforientare · 17/12/2009 21:18

goya??? i haven't heard that term being used for ages!!

WinkyWinkola · 17/12/2009 21:19

The number of children attending the children's service at our shul has soared since this case hit the headlines. They sign a register to confirm attendance in case any doubt arises over their eligibility to attend the local Jewish school.

we3kingbeat23oforientare · 17/12/2009 21:24

Exactly Winky. My sister has to attend shul a certain amount of days a year now....to prove that she is Jewish!!

What kind of test will they give me.

Tigga, I think that your post was the most concise and wonderfully digestable post I have read in ages. My sister also had to show her marriage certificate to the school. I'm not sure how they would ever prove I was Jewish at all, not being married or having been Bat Mitzvah'd but that would all depend on me wanting to send my child to a faith school in the first place.

zazizoma · 17/12/2009 21:25

hmm we3, are you a 'gentile' who has absconded with one of the chosen sons? (wink)

we3kingbeat23oforientare · 17/12/2009 21:34

nope - jewish who has had a child out of wedlock with a catholic!!

zazizoma · 17/12/2009 21:38

ah, but your dc are perfect for JFS!

EmilyStrange · 17/12/2009 21:39

Having to attend shul to sign a register is the biggest joke, it promotes hypocrisy, resentment and makes a mockery of everyone's freedom to practise their religion as they see fit. It is an alarming precedent.

ImSoNotTelling · 17/12/2009 21:39

Maybe it will take the form of a quickfire question round we3

It sounds as if Jewish schools may have to go down the route that the christian schools take - having to attend a (maybe named) place of worship for a specific amount of time and with defined regularity. Possibly having done other stuff - being a formalised member of that place of worship, having gone through various ceremonies etc.

OP posts:
ImSoNotTelling · 17/12/2009 21:40

Top x-post emily. It may be a precedent for how things work with Jewish schools, but what you have described is the norm for christian schools round here!

OP posts:
EmilyStrange · 17/12/2009 21:43

Jewish schools should not have to go down the same route as Christian schools because Judaism is a different religion and as such practices differently. Some religions pray at home to shrines, if they set up faith schools would they have to be visited every day by inspectors to make sure they pray. It is an absolute joke.