French citizenship : Only if your wife isn't veiled

[nothingofthesort]

I can't figure out what to make of this. Men shouldn't get a say in how their wives dress isn't it? Doesn't this encourage the opposite?

Well said moondog.

I find it surprising that the muslim men buy into this notion. It doesn't exactly make them look good, does it?

Good point ABetaDad. There is obviously a lot of that too.
But I don't think they never wanted to integrate in the first place. The second and third generation however seem to be determined not to integrate. An eye for an eye.....same old story.

Saraya, one again I think it is totally short sighted to see this as a religious issue.

It is a political issue. Legislating about how we live in a given society.

And really, you are the first one to bring up "terrorism".

Fran, that is appalling...

The Egyptian men you encountered behaved so disrespectfully- does this mean they are upholding "Egyptian values"? If they are, shouldn't those values be challenged in some way?

I use this as an example- many posters have talked about "French values" and "un-French" behaviour, without acknowledging that a nations norms, values and identity is subject and able to change.

Fifty years ago, this debate could have been happening about Sikh turbans. It isn't. Is that because they cover a different part of the head, or because we have moved on and accepted them as part of our society, reflecting our norms and values? Why haven't the French?

No-one has mentioned up until now that France saw fit to colonise much of muslim North Africa- France is the 'mother country' to many. I think this is worth bearing in mind when discussing 'French values'.

slim, genuine question as you cite second and third generation muslims as not wanting to integrate; whereabouts in the country are you? I understand if you don't want to answer, I am just curious.

Perhaps we should ban my DP from wearing breton shirts and strings of onions round his neck (It has happened. Don't ask) as they contravene our "English values"

Riven, you are right, you do not have to justify how you dress. The comments were playground-level, and not worth a response.

I have genuinely enjoyed this debate- it makes a refreshing change from bf/formula WOHM/SAHM and endless MIL threads. I don't think we should allow it to sink to a discussion about whether or not our personal beliefs support the wearing of the veil; this began about whether legislation should echo or go against our own personal views on the matter.

"People who use the word 'tents' or mediaval clearly have no repect for other women's choices"

Too true. Who in their right mind wears a tent? It's a ridiculous garment.

If you choose to have your life dictated to the nth degree by what one man said his imaginary friend told him, then that is your problem. Don't expect me to buy into your irrationality.

Wow, fembear. What blinding insight

It's hard to imagine how this thread could survive without your intelligent contributions.

Riven, to your question about 'french values', I think this is one of the most important questions societies do not face normally. And when they face it they go back 200 years (or whatever date is convenient depending on the country/community) trying to answer what be 'authentic' mean.

Instead, it would be quite useful to look at your current society and check out what being French means. It is a difficult exercise but I believe it is worth trying. French are asking some right questions I believe, and they are facing issues others prefer to ignore. However, the way they construct that identity is plaintly wrong and based on the some idea of 'Frenchness' somewhere in the past.

I don't think the veil makes a woman any less visible. In fact it draws attention to her. I live in East London and see my fair share of veiled women but I still look. I consider it a sign - I am muslim and I don't want to mix with you. I have muslim friends as college who wear scarves but none who wear the veil because they never make eye contact or engage in debate. I respect their right to this but find their decision not to integrate with fellow students offensive.

13.12.09 23:58 "Fembear, I agree with you totally."

14.12.09 11:24 "Wow, fembear. What blinding insight. It's hard to imagine how this thread could survive without your intelligent contributions."

Make your mind up.

Two responses to two different posts, fembear. I agreed with the point you made on the first- inexplicably, on the other you seem to be talking out of your posterior.

Surely that's not difficult to comprehend?

I go on posts alone- I am not able to make a judgement about whether or not I like you- we've never met. Good to know you care though

Good point about 'Frenchness', camaleon

"I don't need to justify my dress choices but I do have a right not to be called 'silly' or 'medieval' over them."

Utter crap again. Everyone should be able to justify anything they do. Or do you think that "religion" is a magic word that absolves you from responsibility for your actions or that prohibits anyone else having an opinion?

"I do expect you to show some decent respect towards my choices"

Why? What makes your choices so special? Are you infallible?

I repeat, you should be able to justify yourself, not hide behind lame statements like "it's my choice"

fembear, you are making your posts personal, and it weakens any valid points you may make.

The point Riven is making is that she does not have to justify her choices to you- and furthermore, should she, were she to apply for citizenship in another country, have to justify her choice of dress to the government? Isn't that what we are debating?

Ignore her (or him or it) Riven. She seems full of hate. Just leave her to it.

I am not sure Riven.
I believe identity exists and this causes problems everywhere, mainly to minorities. Obviously lookint at your past does not help much and in any case you need to fix a date.

Curry and falafel are now French too. I am not against countries or other smaller communities (or larger regional, like Europe) trying to 'preserve' some sense of identity and values. We are not neutral. This is one of the biggest lies Europeans (Western and Eastern too, now) tell themselves. We have values (many link to christian religion and paradoxically also laicism) and people feel the need to preserve them. Equality between men and women is on of those values and it was a tought one to get. And still is only a 'legal' or formal reality, an on-going fight. I do not think this kind of debates are about what people wear, they are about the risk of undermining that specific value of equality of men and women.

I do not have a final opinion on this, how to face it as a public policy. However, it is not fair to say that this kind of debate are exactly the same as debates on School Uniform and the right to choose whatever you want to wear as part of a right of freedom of expression or whatever (by the way... I HATE school uniforms)

Buff...
Sorry for all the typos... Keyboard is playing games...

It's an issue of Islam, not in the name of emancipating women.

If someone wants to cover their face - then do it - if it's a question of someone being made to cover up then it's a problem - if someone is being prevented from covering up it's a problem.

The theme is about Islam, not women's rights.

LOL at the people who see woman covered walking 10 paces behind their husbands - this is about preconceptions- not women's rights - I see so many posts here about bad treatment - lots of mnetters assuming the OP's dh is from an Islamic cutlure and nope they are not in many cases.

Bad treatment of women is not culture specific.

As a woman I'd be very angry if anyone tried to force me to wear or take off any attire.

giveitago, not sure what your point is about women walking ten paces behind their husbands. I've seen this regularly in London and it does offend me. In this country we are all, men and women alike, considered equal - although clearly it's not perfect in practice at least we hold that principle dear.

Men who demand they walk in front of their wives (or, I suppose, women who insist their husband walks in front against his wishes, although I seriously doubt there are any) are clearly rejecting our legal system and our customs. If they want to be more important than women, they can live somewhere where that is the case, like Saudi.