French citizenship : Only if your wife isn't veiled

[nothingofthesort]

I can't figure out what to make of this. Men shouldn't get a say in how their wives dress isn't it? Doesn't this encourage the opposite?

teafortwo - I've seen those attitudes in this country. In a largely Asian district of Sheffield, as it happens. Where there were plenty of Muslim men who felt free to cat-call and even spit at anyone wearing Western clothes. One even attacked my sister when she was wearing her sodding school uniform - a very unattractive knee-length kilt and long socks. (Thankfully our dog was out and when she screamed, he came bounding round the corner and knocked the man to the ground. Hope very much that taught the attacker a lesson.)

So IME full Islamic dress does have consequences for people other than the wearers, whether they have made an active choice or not. It encourages misogynists to to think they are entitled to control all women in their vicinity - that they are in charge of the public realm and can apply their personal moral and cultural code to everyone.

"So.. help me out, here... it's ok for Germany to ban Nazi symbols(which speak), because it's...free speech? No, hang on...what?"
The reason Nazi symbols are banned in Germany is that they are a statement of political allegiance to a regime and a philosophy that is now anathema to Germany and Germans and many other people worldwide. The symbols speak without words. So does the niqab. France respects the right of free speech, but with words, not an 'in your face' symbol. To the French, debate and discussion involve the use of words. Debate by gesture (wearing the veil), and the avoidance of words, or use of a vocabulary of public discourse that is not held in common, is not conducive to the creation or maintenance of a cohesive society where many ethnicities and religious groups try to live together under the same set of laws.

It is highly likely that it is the husbands of women who wear the niqab who make western women such as Teafortwo uncomfortable going about their daily lives dressed as they please. Preventing them from becoming citizens is probably a good thing for all women in France. It is the men that the French are aiming at in their legislation, because they probably rightly feel that these men have a mindset that has very little in common with the values of French society. They have assessed the dynamic correctly here. Such men now have to choose what exactly they are doing in France.

"Surely we, as a civilised, free and forward thinking society have the capability to address oppression in a better way?"

And what oppression is that? The opression that tells a woman what she can or cannot wear, whether she has freedom or not ...

Or the real oppression that makes out that it is the woman's fault that, apparently, muslim men are raving sex beasts with uncontrollable urges. Why do women have to cover up? If it is men that have the problem, then it is them that should sort it by wearing blindfolds or chastity belts or whatever. Why does the man's failing become the woman's problem.

"The reason Nazi symbols are banned in Germany is that they are a statement of political allegiance to a regime and a philosophy that is now anathema to Germany and Germans and many other people worldwide."

You are incredibly naive if you believe this to be the case. They are banned in an attempt to halt the rising popularity of neo-Nazism.

"To the French, debate and discussion involve the use of words."

But not the Germans. They do symbols. Do they do words too? I forget...

"Debate by gesture (wearing the veil), and the avoidance of words, or use of a vocabulary of public discourse that is not held in common, is not conducive to the creation or maintenance of a cohesive society where many ethnicities and religious groups try to live together under the same set of laws."

What is the legislation if not 'debate by gesture'? Is there really no alternative way to address the issue?

"France respects the right of free speech, but with words, not an 'in your face' symbol"

Please quote the government or legal documentation to substantiate this spurious claim. My DP is French, and he has not heard of such an official policy. He could be wrong, of course- please elaborate.

"It is highly likely that it is the husbands of women who wear the niqab who make western women such as Teafortwo uncomfortable going about their daily lives dressed as they please."

Whoa, sweeping generalisation there! That's pure conjecture, and you know it. You afford women who wear the niqab no free will at all. This is not necessarily the case, whether or not you agree with the wearing of one (and I don't). Legislating against the niqab surely relies on the same principle as forcing a woman to wear one?

"Or the real oppression that makes out that it is the woman's fault that, apparently, muslim men are raving sex beasts with uncontrollable urges. Why do women have to cover up? If it is men that have the problem, then it is them that should sort it by wearing blindfolds or chastity belts or whatever. Why does the man's failing become the woman's problem."

Fembear, I agree with you totally. We are talking about the same oppression. Legislating against the niqab will not change this attitude. Empowering women to choose not to wear it (or indeed to wear it) might.

While I'm all for people expressing themselves I do think wearing something that visually blocks people from interacting with you is devisive (sp? insomnia is mushing my brain!)

It is also creating problems for people with hearing difficulties who need to lip read.

So without the whole religion bombshell thrown in to any argument if France want to do this then good for them. Covering the face is just one step too far and no matter what is said it does make the person behind it invisible.

"Surely we, as a civilised, free and forward thinking society have the capability to address oppression in a better way?"

I think the problem is policing clothing and relying on the metaphor to trickledown is so much easier than policing ideas, beliefs, private and domestic life! How does one go about doing such a thing?

I am interested, tethersend, What would you suggest for first steps towards genuine freedom for currently oppressed Muslim girls and women and/or ways to encourage Muslim men to take the onus for their own sexual thoughts, utterances and actions away from woman's attire and take full responsibility themselves?I know there are non-Muslims who don't do this and many Muslims who do but in my experience of living among Arab and Berber Muslim Men (woman and children) it is clear that this mentality often does hang around in the background and IMHO it doesn't sit comfortably with Western femminist ideals.

"What is the legislation if not 'debate by gesture'?" When legislation is introduced it is debated as part of the process of becoming law, surely?

The banning of Nazi symbols may have the side effect of keeping neo Nazism from becoming popular, but this was not the only intent of those who banned them. Germany made a value judgement on Nazism long before right wing groups began gathering any kind of support in the post war years.

edam - That sounds MUCH worse than anything I have experienced and illustrates even further the point I was trying to make earlier. I really feel very deeply for your sister and angry at anyone who thinks it is OK to treat another person in that way. What a truly awful experience!

p.s tethersend - I just read my last post again and am worried it might have come across as sarcastic, it isn't, I am really very interested in any ideas you have!

Very good posts teafortwo.

"I am interested, tethersend, What would you suggest for first steps towards genuine freedom for currently oppressed Muslim girls and women and/or ways to encourage Muslim men to take the onus for their own sexual thoughts, utterances and actions away from woman's attire and take full responsibility themselves?"

Exactly. If you have better ideas, please write to your MP.

(Teether, democracy is representative in France if I may remind you.)

There are many cases in this country where young women take to wearing the veil in opposition to the wishes of their parents.

Seriously, I have problems with any piece of legislation that blatantly says "this government accepts that women are helpless pawns in the hands of their husbands". It's not about whether it's divisive or not; it's about whether we admit the possibility that a woman might actually be thinking of herself.

I would not like any piece of legislation that would make my citizenship in this country dependent on dh's dress sense.

I think most of you didn't understand the news very well. Most women wearing the full viel are told to do so by their husband or their fathers, brothers. They have no say in it at all. They are also in most cases secluded at home with no exchange with the local population and no hope. The French minister says that in that case the husband doesn't believe in the value of the republic (i.e. Freedom for all, including women who should do as they please) and shouldn't ask or be granted the french citizenship. To have a law on it might be a bit extreme, but hey in the napoleonic code which is still in use today, women are not allowed to wear pants.... It is the written law in france but nobody is actually punished or following it!
FYI it is horribly difficult to get the british nationality, it is just not talked about.

"I am sick of walking past building sites and being catcalled or my 17 yo daughter being groped by strange men on buses/tube/in pub and having her breasts or figure discussed."

Utter crap. They are prohibited from catcalling these days, and have been for years. My daughter regularly uses public transport and has never once complained about being groped.
You often come out with these comments along the lines of "I'm so gorgeous that men can't help themselves in my vicinity" It almost seems like you make them up to justify your silly decision to accept clothing advice from pre-mediaeval man.
Perhaps you should take note of a couple of postings above which seem to indicate that it is 'nice' muslim men who indulge in this behaviour. I never get it in my non-muslim neck of the woods.

And as for the comment about the veil not being a barrier and we don't need visual signals ... you've been on MN long enough to know that there are numerous misunderstandings and misreadings of text-only messages. People are forever having to go back and clarify what they mean. We do need to see someone's face to communicate properly. If a woman chooses to cover up, she is choosing to send a very rude and unfriendly message

Agreed Riven, sexploitation of the image of women is a universal problem. Just a quick example: In the UK there are laws to to protect rape victims. You don't get stoned to death because your family lost face.

So whilst the mentality may be very similar, men don't routinely act upon it the same way because there is no impunity.
Boys are not bread to view their wife-to-be merely as a disposable domestic commodity.

But we have come a long way in the last few decades. Yet, Irish women are still waiting for the right to have an abortion & muslim women must be encouraged and empowered to fight for emancipation too.
Muslim women everywhere in the islamic world will benefit. Women everywhere in the world will benefit.

I hail from an Arab muslim country, have family and friends in all muslim countries from the Atlantic to Indonesia encompassing all rites and nuances of Islamic culture. No woman wears the veil willingly let alone the burka/Niqab.

Many women have made peace with this, only because they have no choice.

This is a male imposed practice that woman just accept from cultural pressures rather than religion. I am a minority white woman in my uni class, the majority being muslim woman. I listen to them respectfully but when one said she was in trouble with her dh for leaving the house to attend a lecture without his permission I was appalled. Her friends told her she knew she was in the wrong so why did she do it . Jeez how can men get away witht this?

"Utter crap. They are prohibited from catcalling these days, and have been for years. My daughter regularly uses public transport and has never once complained about being groped."

I don't think calling Riven a liar is particularly helpful, here fembear.

I must remember to explain to the next catcalling builder I encounter that it is in fact prohibited, and therefore never happens , or the next wanker who grabs my arse on the tube that because someone's daughter somewhere in the country has never been groped that that doesn't happen either .

Now. Listen very carefully... Just because it doesn't happen to you, or anyone you know, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. You might want to think about this for a bit. Let it sink in.

"I never get it in my non-muslim neck of the woods."

I'm really not sure what you're implying here- that only muslim men abuse women in the street? Seriously?

Your last post is vile, personal, and spoils what, up to now, has been a very enjoyable debate.

I have an Asian landlord. He came to the UK with his parents from Pakistan when he was a toddler and he has a wife who is about ten years younger than him but similar background.

She wears western dress about half the time and more traditional Asian dress the other half the time. She often wears a scarf over her hair but sometimes not. Her husband is the same sometimes western dress and sometimes more raditional. What I notice is how stylishly they dress and how they slip between traditional and western modes of dress and sometimes mixing them up. I am sure my landlord does not tell his wife how to dress. What I also notice is how they have integrated into UK society while still retaining some customs and language of heir childhood/parents.

My feeling about the full face veil when I see it worn in the UK is that its role is to 'prevent integration' rather than oppress women. To be living begrudgingly in the UK for economic reasons but determined to never integrate at all seems to be something that should be questioned. I suspect that is really at the root of why France is concerned about the veil.

DD, a young prime-of-her-life teenager, has just got up (because it's teenage o'clock) so I asked her about lechers, leerers and gropers. She says that she has never had any problem and neither have any of her friends. They are all fairly normal teenagers who use public transport and go to pubs and clubs, and who are presentable (some are gorgeous, none of them are pug-ugly). I tried to enquire further but she said there is no more to say: it doesn't happen. The only thing she could think of was the occasional toot from passing lorries.

obviously this discussion is going nowhere..Of course France can do what France wants and Muslim women can do what they want they just have to go their seperate ways..it is virtually impossible for the two ways of thinking to come together ..sadly this is seen everyday when matters of islamic faioth or culture are brought up. I am pro engagement but even on a very tiny scale from what i have observed here on this thread neither engagement nor debate is proving successful at all from both schools of thought.It is purely a religious cultural clash and in this case too many undercurrents of "fundamentalism" and "terrorism" are involved. It is now the case that most of us have very strong suspicions and fears about any blatant sign of Islamic fundamental belief and it is very sad indeed for I am sure it would not have been such an intricate and very heated matter for debate had there not been the likes of osama Ben Laden around or the atrocity of 9/11 in our minds.

LMAO at this on the comments

'Well done France this is the best thing to come out of your country since the garlic bulb.'

If you want leering men go to Egypt. Never have I found such disrepectful men. Even my 8 yo dd was made very uncomfortable by one of the hotel staff - a man of 40 yo ish - who kept telling her he loved her and wanted to marry ber. DH and I laughed in an embarrassed way but found it a little strange - is this normal? Now I am waiting for 60 relies saying how offensive I am etc etc or bad minded. It happened though and dd didn't like it.

Of course Fran.
It's what happens if you treat men like animals on heat who need to have women wrapped up and kept away from them.
Self fulfilling prophecy innit?

Exactly. If you have better ideas, please write to your MP.

(Teether, democracy is representative in France if I may remind you.)

slim, I mentioned France's democratic status on the first page of this thread; I don't need reminding, thank you all the same. I mentioned it as a sign that, as a democratic society, it was capable of treating its citizens with respect and not affording or denying rights according to dress.

Have I any better ideas? Ooops, sorry, I didn't realise that in order to object to any piece of government legislation, I had to write an alternative policy

Ah well, I'll give it a go....

...How about, instead of prohibiting anyone whose wife wears the niqab from obtaining citizenship, they, err... don't?

...And assess each case on its individual merits?

Radical, I know- but it might work

saraya you make a very good point - I think Western beliefs about freedom of expression are really called into question in cases like these.