Three Irish women who travelled to the UK to have abortions have now gone to Strasbourg to argue that Ireland's strict abortion law violated their rights.

[TinselInYourBum]

[http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/news/2009/12/091209_ireland_abortion_et_sl.shtml]

God and I still can't do links.

I strongly feel that abortion should be kept illegal in Ireland.

MN Jury?

Your stated opinion is that women who have unwanted pregnancies are 'stupid', though, MrsRigby. And should be punished for their stupidity by being forced to go through pregnancy and childbirth and having to give up their baby once it is born.

Hardly a basis for polite debate.

I'm not a practising Christian either, but have always been struck by the line: 'Judge not lest ye be judged'.

"I never had to face the hard decision on what to do with an unwanted pregnancy, because I didn't sleep around and always used protection when I did."

Nonsense. You didn't have to deal with it because you got lucky.

I wasn't sleeping around either and I used protection. It didn't mean I didn't get pregnant though.
I dealt with it, and did what was best for myself, my partner and my daughter. I couldn't put an unborn baby above three people who already had established lives.

'expatinscotland men can't get pregnant.'

Nah! You don't say! Newsflash: women can't get pregnant, eiter, hwithout a man being involved at some point. Yet it's all about these 'stupid' women keeping their legs crossed.

'I never had to face the hard decision on what to do with an unwanted pregnancy, because I didn't sleep around and always used protection when I did.'

If that's not a nasty thing to write, I don't know what is!

I slept around, such a slag who couldn't keep her legs crossed, always used protection and was lucky I didn't have to face what some women have.

But far be it from me to force other women to go through an unwanted pregnancy, much less label them stupid slappers for falling pregnant in the first place.

There's one poster on this thread who had an unwanted pregnancy and was married, AND using protection.

Another who was in a committed, monogamous relationship, also using extremely effective contraception and fell pregnant.

Sort of blows away the whole: only slags who don't use contraception get pregnant and have abortions.

And you don't need to work for teh NHS to educate yourself on how abortions are performed.

'had I experienced an unwanted pregnancy, I would have kept it anyway and dealt with my issues'.

It's so simple isn't it when you haven't expereienced it? Because a desire to continue the pregnancy is not an unwanted pregnancy. It's an unplanned one. It's a small but fundamental distinction.

Let me tell you a little about myself MrsRigby. I have a husband. The only man I have ever had sex with. 11 years we have been together. We have a beautiful dd. We use 3 forms of contraception because we don't want more children. We have been refused permanent contraceptive options (vasectomy/sterilisation) because of our age. I am 5 weeks pg. I am waiting for a termination on the NHS.

I didn't understand what unwanted pregnancy meant until I found myself in this situation. I have crippliing, terrible ptsd from dd's birth. I lost days of mine and her life to the nightmares and flashbacks. Since I found out I was pg a week ago, I have not eaten. I have barely slept. The terrible, gut wrenching knowledge of what I will have to do to an unborn soul is hanging over me like a suffocating cloud. But there is a good chance I can cope with this and get through it sane and more importantly alive. There is no chance I can continue this pregnancy and not severely damage my own health and that of the people around me. Your value judgments on my behaviour before this happened and on what I will do are so inaccurate.

Abortion is not easy. It is not a contraceptive choice. It's the ghastly conclusion to a terrible situation. And even without the physical side of it, it's not a practically easy thing. Do you know how many appointments you have to go to? How many drs you have to justify yourself to? How many weeks you have to lie awake sobbing because you wish to God you could undo the situation without having to resort to termination?

You can't make sweeping comments about unwanted pregnancies if you don't know what an unwanted pregnancy is.

MrsRigby - I know someone who got pregnant when she was a teenager. She was not sleeping around. She did not have a problem with keeping her legs crossed. She was a victim of abuse and it was her stepfather who could not keep it in his pants, and certainly didn't wear a condom to protect his victim. As I said before, not all sex is consensual, and your post fails to address this point.

Should this girl have been forced to carry the pregnancy to term? She is now an adult and sees a psychiatrist regularly because of all the abuse - how much worse might it have been with all the trauma of carrying her abuser's baby?

i see no reason why muggle and different name should feel shame at all.

in fact i find it sad they'd even consider it!

I think everyone should read the Freakonomics chapter on abortion

Mrsrigby i agree wholeheartedly with what you have said and wish I could have, I was starting to feel like the only person not in favour of abortion on this thread.

kaloki I have just read the chapter you have pointed out, but I am not sure what point you are making- are you saying that because the crime rates in america have gone down since abortion became legal (and who says the two factors are even linked?) that this somehow justifies millions of abortions?
Then following this argument we could just eexterminate all criminals and that would have a similar (and more fairly decided) effect.

expat I have a lot of sympathy for women who have used birth control rteliably and still fell pregnant, being one of them myself, but these fall into the minority statistically speaking when it comes to abortions.

Lets not forget that nearly half of all the women in the USA last year who had an abortion had NOT used any contraception in the month prior to their pregnancy and 8% had NEVER yes NEVER used any contraception.

To me this STUPID, self defeating and makes me ashamed to be a women.

wanttodomyjob. Why should you be ashamed to be a woman? Many women do many things, it doesn't inform what it means for you to be a woman.

And are you seriously saying that because some women make poor decisions, abortion isn't appropriate for anybody?

It might be more pertinent to look at why people make poor decisions in the first place and to combat that, not deny women in genuine need access to the care they require.

I'm ashamed of being a woman when some women try to dictate what other women can and can't do with their bodies.

I'm also ashamed of being a woman when they get on their high horses seemingly convinced of their superiority,and judge other women by applying their beliefs,their morals and their circumstances to their, often very different, lives and situations.

And I'm ashamed of being a women when they paint other women as mindless whores, who are so stupid that they're unable to decide for themselves how best to deal with an unwanted pregnancy, while at the same time ignoring the role and responsibilities of the other party i.e the man.

It isn't that she didn't use contraception they didn't use contraception.
It took two people so why is the blame always foisted upon the woman?

notanun
No I am not and have not said that because the majority of abortions have been carried out on women who have (mostly) CHOSEN to do nothing to avoid pregnancy, that it is not right for anyone. I would still say as a compassionate person that of if a women life is really in danger as the result of a pregnancy then the lesser of the two'evils' would be to opffer an abortion.

My understanding is that this is what our own (UK) law was actually trying to achieve, not the offering of state funded (usually) abortions to women who have not bothered to avoid pregnancy.

There has to be a balance,in all facets of life, not just this, between a persons RIGHTS and their RESPONSIBILITIES. A women, (and of course a man- but ultimeately it is a women who will become pregnant so she has a far greater 'vested interest' IMO)has a responsibility for avoiding unwanted pregnancy, and here in the UK we have access to free contraception and advice so it is a no brainer. The right which goes along with this is the right to enjoy sex free of worry.

I do not believe that women who become accidentally pregnant are 'slags'that is a horrible term, but I do think they are bloody stupid and I feel sorry that they put themselves and the unwated babies in this dreadfulposition in the first place.

wanttodomyjob - to understand abortion rates in the US you also need to consider access to contraception and education
Abstinence based sex ed is popular in some states

are the failure rates for contraceptives available in the UK www.cks.nhs.uk/contraception/background_information/effectiveness_of_contraceptives

oops - here

Elvdon,
yes I agree, the US is not the same as Uk I know, although even in abstinance preaching states (which is right for some people) If I had more time i would have preferred to have researched the stats for UK. The most easily accesible stats seem to be published by BPAS and ,if you read them carefully does seem to indicate similarly high (not AS high I have to say) rates for non contraceptive use, But also points out that the actual stats are likely to be higher but that due to that in their experience women are reluctant to report non use as the reason for pregnancy for fear of stigma.

I just wish that women would wake up and see that abortion is not the answer, yes I know that as individuals each sensible women would probably make a compelling case for 'needing' her abortion but if the option was not available then I believe that their would in the main be a cultural shift and women would become much more feminist in the truest sense, being proud of and taking care of their reproductive capabilities.

Applauds LetThereBeRock! Excellent post!

'My understanding is that this is what our own (UK) law was actually trying to achieve, not the offering of state funded (usually) abortions to women who have not bothered to avoid pregnancy.'

So in other words, abortion only for those who can afford it.

And because some people did not use contraception, then all who fall pregnant and do not wish to sustain the pregnancy should be forced to carry them through.

The mind boggles!

And here I thought I had left behind such barbaric, archaic anachronisms in the US Conservative state where I was born.

I just wish that women would wake up and see that abortion is not the answer,

Indeed! Let's crack the whip on men, too, to take pride in their reproductive abilities and use a damn condom, each and every time.

There's a concept! Empowering men, without whom women cannot fall pregnant, to take some responsibility for their sexual health.

An entire 50% of the population, each of whom are capable of creating far more human beings than a single woman.

wanttodomyjob, you are failing to distinguish between a lax attitude towards contraception and a genuine need for abortions.

What of me? I am proud of my reproductive capabilities. I took care of them. I used 3 forms of contraception to avoid pregnancy. Sheer luck and contraceptive efficacy means that I am pregnant. Now you don't know me. You don't know if I'm making a 'compelling' case about 'need' but assume this simple fact is true: if I had to continue with this pregnancy, I would not be here to parent my existing child. My psychological well being would be shattered. Now, assuming you accept that to be true from a woman who is married to the one and only sexual partner she has had for 11 years, is educated and informed and torn apart by this cruel decision, do you really think I need to 'wake up' and see that abortion isn't the answer. Because tell me, what is the answer?

Of course, sometimes abortion is the answer. How could any one person decide what was or was not the answer for other women.

Women still carry the can for their unwanted pregnancies, and they take all the flak for abortion as well. It's not right.

i belive the life of the child is as important as that of the mother, not more important ( has anyone actually said that? doubt it.) As one can't believe that one life is more imporant than another if they believe that life is important.

I have these beliefs for myself. By having these beliefs it does not mean that there is a 'between the lines' unsaid something which infers that i am judging anyone else.

A poster very early on in the thread mentioned how it was difficult to discuss this topic as people argue from a personal level, and others from a philosophical level - which don't marry.

some of the language, inferences and tone used against ( from what i have read) one poster who dared have a different opinion, has actually astounded me ( it takes a lot)

Yes, there are going to be those women who have had a n abotion despite failing of multiple sources of contraception.

yes, there are going to be women who become pregnant through rape.

but these ( and some others mentioned on this thread) are a tiny percentage of those women who have abortions surely?

I would have literally killed myself if i had another child. My life was so utterly utterly horrible with 3 under 3 yo, no money ( and i mean ..no money) that DH and i took the appropriate contraceptive steps to ensure that didn't happen.

as mentioned above ( and with all life circs, there are exeptions but they must be a small percentage)

Having looked i cannot find a breakdown of the reasons why women have abortions. So i can only comment from the people i know. The people i know who have had abortions, have done so becuase they were not careful enough with regards to their sexual activity and contraception.

To me this is astounding. when we have the means available to us in this day and age.

What i am definately NOT implying, is that an abortion is an easy experience to go through. Absolutley not.

If this were 50 years ago, i may well be in favour of safe abortions provided freely, as there wasn't the contraceptive range available today.

But expat, I have not said that half of the solution is not with men- ideally it is, but being a pragmatist I see that as long as there are women tacitly willing (and i fully include myself pre unplanned preg here) to have sex without insisiting men use condoms then men will carry on having sex without condoms!!!

Unfortunately, we can argue the rightness or fairness of the weight of responsibility falling on women with regards reproduction, but that does not therefor = that we should allow (as a society) abortion 'on demand'.

I'm genuinely interested in what you would propose instead Custy. I wholeheartedly agree with the arguments surrounding a lax attitude to contraception. It's astounding in this day and age.

As one of those people in that small minority you refer to who had multiple contraceptive failure, is in the situation you would have have been if you found yourself pregnant, what is the alternative for me? We are and have been saving for a private vasectomy for dh having been refused on the nhs. I cannot afford a private abortion. I am genuinely interested in what you propose to be the answer? You acknowledge the small minority that need access to this facility so would you agree with much tighter restrictions on abortion. And how would this be enforced?

wanttodomyjob, I ask you the same question. What do you want done instead if you acknowledge a genuine need for abortion for a small percentage?

My very recent experience, btw, does not show that abortion is 'on demand'. I have justified this to 2 doctors already. I have to see 2 more. I have to have counselling. Only then will I be referred if it is deemed appropriate. I am suffering with crippling morning sickness and will be for some weeks to come and it's not actually guaranteed that my 'request' will be fulfilled. It's not easy to obtain an abortion if you can't pay for it, don't labour under any illusions.

Amazing that none of the ant-abortion crowd want to deal with notanun's situation.

As she says, what do you think she should do if not have an abortion? From what she says it appears to me to be the best option for her and her family.