Three Irish women who travelled to the UK to have abortions have now gone to Strasbourg to argue that Ireland's strict abortion law violated their rights.

[TinselInYourBum]

[http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/news/2009/12/091209_ireland_abortion_et_sl.shtml]

God and I still can't do links.

I strongly feel that abortion should be kept illegal in Ireland.

MN Jury?

gosh notanun, i'm not sure.

I think i would have to do a big societal re-wind and start with parenting classes, where parents feel empowered enough to educate their children, rather than the education the children get en masse at school.

I think there does have to be a cultural shift before one could actually tighten restrictions.

If i ruled the world tomorrow then i think it would be a bit daft to suddenly stop access to abortions as i really think that we can't contemplate this until extensive investment and confidence in parenting skills has been made.

I might perhaps ( with endless money and resources to hand in my imaginary world) look at the waiting times and look into making the process quicker and more efficient and then as a result lower the time allowed to abort to hopefully 12.

Custy;

doesn't matter that contraception has been around for years, women will still forget to take the pill, just like they forget to turn the iron off or phone the vets....life is hectic and mistakes are made..

i'm pro-choice (and catholic)...no woman should go ahead with a pregnancy if she doesn't want to...i would never judge on this.

i wouldn't judge either as said in my first post.

My contraceptive choice ( as i was so certain i didn't want more children) knowing that i was forgetful yet wouldn't..nay couldn't phycologically go through that horror again - ensured that i chose a form of contraception i couldn't forget. For me, this was more important to my wellbeing than 'forgetting'

'But expat, I have not said that half of the solution is not with men-'

No, you're saying the solution is for women not to have abortions.

You put all the onus on one half of the equation.

I was using a form of contraception I couldn't forget. As well as condoms.

I do not want more children. I know this. I could not have made any more steps to prevent pregnancy short of abstaining from having sex until we've raised the money for a vasectomy. Perhaps that's what I should have done.

I psychologically cannot go through the horror of pregnancy and birth or parenting again. So, if there was no recourse to NHS funded abortion, I would not be here today. Or if I was here, I wouldn't be here, I'd be there in a facility that could deal with my utter breakdown.

ikwym custy..

i had 3 dc in 3 yrs...another baby would have killed me too (literally)..

i was very young when i had dd1 (18) i had ds1 when she was 18 months old, (he was planned) i B/F ds1 and thought i couldn't get pregnant while B/F....i was pregnant again within 3 months of his birth...

edam maybe there was a better way of putting it, but unfortunately this subject is highly emotive for me and maybe I let my anger and deep sadness get in the way of giving a different perspective.

I do think though that once pregnant, regardless of whether the baby was wanted or not, that the mother has a duty to protect and care for her unborn baby.

muggglewump I'm afraid I have to disagree again, I didn't get lucky - I just used my brain and contraception.

I accept that contraception doesn't always work, but this is usually because it's not taken properly or when ill etc. Rarely does it just not work.

And I probably should point out that I don't believe all women are slags/sluts/slappers. Generally, a fair proportion of women who have abortions are young and do sleep around and not use contraception. I accept that there are women outside this category who get pregnant and have abortions also.

expatinscotland I never said that you had to work in the NHS to have knowledge of abortions. I stated that's how I acuired my knowledge as someone suggested I subscribed to those pro-life websites.

notanun I'm sorry for you and very sorry for your unborn child. It will never know love and it kills me to think that he/she will be ripped away from the comfort and safety of your womb. There are some abortion/termination threads in the anti-natal tests and choices section. I'm sure there will be more women like you there and if you need to talk, need support or want information they will help. I hope the date comes through very soon for you.

alexpolismum I accept that not all sex is consensual. It was a terrible thing to happen to her and I hope the Stepfather was caught and punished.

If I was raped, the first thing I would do is get the morning after pill. If I could not access that, then I would carry the baby as I could never kill it. I highly doubt I would be strong enough to keep the child, but I would definately have it adopted so another couple could give it the life and love it deserves. This is just what I would do.

expatinscotland I agree muggglewump et al should not feel that they need to change their name. We are all entitled to our opinions and there are obviously many on this thread who agree with them anyway.

It's a good thing that we have freedom of speech.

wanttodomyjob I am also ashamed to be a woman.

letthereberock because it's the woman who has to carry the baby. It's a womans job to nourish and protect her unborn child.

expatinscotland you want barbaric? Look in to partial birth abortions.

custychristlemeth I agree with you.

I also would like the abortion limit reduced. I think it should be reduced to 6-8 weeks as I think this is when the heart starts beating. I appreciate the NHS need to act quicker with referrals and it is not always the woman causing the delay.

daftpunk I'm sorry to say this to you, but I was informed by various midwifes that I must use contraception after my DS as breastfeeding will not protect me. Even before this, sex ed in school, reading and talking to other women I discovered that breastfeeding wasn't a form of contraception. I'm glad that you continued with the pregnancy anyway.

The woman who lives across the road from me didn't think she'd get pregnant from using the withdrawl method. She continued with the pregnancy and my little boy and hers now play together every Monday. She and her husband continued to have sex without contraception, neither of them want more children and she missed a few periods. She spoke about abortion as if it were nothing and just another form of contraception. I'm very happy to say that her husband had a vasectomy a few weeks ago, although they still need to use another form of contraceptive for a while.

At the end of the day, I believe that unless the mother faces death through carrying/having the baby that abortion should not be an option. No one seems to think about the baby and how it feels. It's always about the mother.

'muggglewump I'm afraid I have to disagree again, I didn't get lucky - I just used my brain and contraception.

I accept that contraception doesn't always work, but this is usually because it's not taken properly or when ill etc. Rarely does it just not work.'

That's pretty insulting, considering mugglewump had a Mirena coil inserted by a healthcare professional.

Hardly not using one's brain.

For not saying all women who get abortions are slappers, but continuing to say you didn't fall pregnant because you used your brain and therefore insinuate that those who experience contraceptive failure don't, you've got one foot in the hole and the other digging deeper.

'There are some abortion/termination threads in the anti-natal tests and choices section. I'm sure there will be more women like you there and if you need to talk, need support or want information they will help. I hope the date comes through very soon for you.'

That section is for people who are deciding whether or not to continue a pregnancy following antenatal test results they may find negative.

It was set up for such persons particularly.

People who are seeking termination do not need to be shunted away from the rest of the board.

If you don't want to read their thread, then don't.

But it's not for anyone to dictate where a member takes a matter such as this.

MrsRigby;

i never contemplated terminating the pregnancy...(although having 3 dc under 3 nearly killed me..)

my beautiful daughter has been decorating the house for christmas all day....

however, i will support any woman who terminates a pregnancy, (for whatever reason) the last thing she needs is critisism....she needs as much support and understanding as she can get....this is one area where woman need to stick together and help each other..

expatinscotland a mirena coil would not be my first choice of contraceptive, it's not as reliable as other forms of contraceptive ie. condom and pill.

I'm not trying to upset anyone and I do apologise if I am. I'm just putting across my opinion.

I am not trying to shunt away someone seeking a termination. I'm trying to let them know that although I disagree with them that there are other women seeking terminations (for various reasons) on another thread and that there is support there for her if she wants it. I'm not a very good communicater.

As I've said all along, this is a highly emotive subject all what you have here is a collection of people with different opinions.

But can I clarify again that the person/s seeking termination don't have to go anywhere.

I think you need to calm down expatinscotland, you seem to have it in for me.

We are all allowed to have an opinion.

Again I am not saying that anyone needs to go anywhere, I was trying to be supportive even though I don't agree. I apologise if anyone thought I was trying to act as a moderater and thow away people.

All contraceptions have failure rates, even when taken properly, some higher than others. Repeatedly calling women stupid and implying that they are lying about contraceptive failure really does not make you come across as a reasonable person with a differing opinion. it makes you sound agressive with an agenda.

Why does it matter anyway? If you are against abortion, why does it matter whether or not there is blame to be attached to women who fall pregnant? Either you believe it to be wrong or not, it shouldn't even be an area for argument. The fact that you also want to blame and admonish shows that you have a wider concern than just the morals of abortion.

As for this one "At the end of the day, I believe that unless the mother faces death through carrying/having the baby that abortion should not be an option. No one seems to think about the baby and how it feels. It's always about the mother."

Some of us dont think about the "baby" because we don't beleive it to be important, not a life, and not sacred. Others believe it is a life worth considering, but not at the same level as the woman involved (not mother, by the way, if you haven't had a baby you aren't a mother), who takes precendence. And many are just desperate and see no other way out, and its all theoretical nonsense at that stage anyway.

pooexplosionsonthedustyroad I haven't kept calling women stupid nor have I implyed that they were lying about contraceptive failure.

I realise you don't agree with my opinion, but please don't start making things up.

I have never said that anyone on this thread was lying about contraceptive failure.

I mentioned in 1 post that not seeking contraception/emergency contraception was stupid.

Thank your for your attempt at supportive anyway. It might be better received if you didn't direct emotive languages and images at me. I'm very sorry it 'kills you' to think of what I have to go through and what I have to do to my child. Perhaps there is a tiny part of you that admits you cannot really understand what it feels like to be in my situation and while entitled to your opinion, you cannot make value judgements about my life or actions.

I wholeheartedly accept that our opinions differ. I absolutely support your right to your own opinion but please don't make sweeping statements. You insist yet again that you used your brain and contraception and that's why you've never had an unplanned pregnancy. Well I'm very educated, was as careful as a person can be (I even used condoms, you do seem to approve of them) and this happened. It is not a reflection of my intelligence or actions that I find myself pregnant today.

pooexplosion

I am just genuinely mystified at how callous you sound!

"some of us dont think about the 'baby' because we dont believe it to be important, not a life and not sacred"

babies, or 'developing fetuses' or whatever you want to call it, they are actually alive you know, and after a shockingly early stage of pregnancy they are able to sense and feel, especially pain.

Do you really, truly not give a damn?

I can in some circumstances understand a woman being desperate, or believeing that an abortion was the only way 'out' for her, but this level of disregard actually disgusts me.

Okay notanun I'm sorry.

I'm sorry I used emotive languages and images, I didn't realise I was doing so at the time.

Your right I can't really understand what it feels like to be in your situation because I'm pro-life and there is absolutely no way I could kill a child.

I'm not trying to judge you, you've already made your decision and it's up to you and your husband to live with what your going to do. I disagree with what your doing and I think you're wrong for seeking a termination, but women have been given a choice and you've chosen a path thats right for you and your husband.

I'm sorry.

MRSRIGBY you are being disingenuous. You have more than once asserted that you were clever and educated and that is why you never fell pregnant when you didn't want to. You stated more than once how women need to educate themselves to avoid pregnancy. You also said that it just doesnt really happen that contraceptive just fails, even when people told you their personal experience of this happening.
You don't have to say "you are stupid and/or lying", to actually say you are stupid and/or lying, and I think you know that.

Intelligent, educated, non-slutty women get pregnant when they don't want to be. A lot more than you think. And it was as much luck as anything else that it never happened to you.
I'm an ex-sexual health educator, and intimately aware of all forms of contraception, their failure rates and how they work. I still have a small baby sitting on may lap as I type that was concieved whil I was properly using a highly reliable form of contraception.

wanttodomyjob I have to say I was sickened and appalled by what pooexsplosionsontheroad said.

wanttodomyjob...

I am not callous, how dare you? I disagree with you on the nature of life and personhood, and I do not believe that a early foetus is a life. I personally believe that it is nothing more than a potential life, and I dispute that a foetus in its early stages is alive. It doesn't meet any standard criteria for a true definition of life.

That is my opinion. It does not make me callous or inhuman, and personal attacks on me are unecessary. I could argue that your refusal to allow abortion would be callous in the extreme to women who need it, and that forcing women to continue unwanted pregnancy shows a disregard for living breathing actual persons that is heinous. But I didn't.

pooexsplosionsontheroad I hope you continually shower that baby on your lap with love and affection and never tell him/her that they were never wanted.

Surely looking into your baby's eyes you must see that life is important and sacred.

Pooexplosion

I think we all are aware that contraception can and does fail, even when used properly.

But that still doesn't make abortion 'ok' in my opinion, and yes it is just an opinion but it is one I hold very strongly.

Statistically speaking, if a women is using three forms of contraception (say pill, condom and excl BF)then she would at worst have a one in ten thousand chance of falling
pregnant.

I have known women who did fall pregnant whilst using the coil, in fact i wouold not touch it with a barge pole myself.

A very close friend of mine fell pregnant not once but twice this way, each time she 'chose' to have an abortion, it was no choice really as her 'DP' put so much pressure on her to go through with it. Guess what, she had a complete mental breakdown a year later and has never recovered.

I could go on and give more examples of women i have known personally who have deeply regretted having a termination and who felt this was thier only 'choice' even though deep down having the baby would have led to a better outcome, in terms of mental health and happiness.

Nothing is ever as clear as it seems.

I think pooexplosions is agreeing with you. Life is important and sacred. Her definition of life disagrees with yours, that is all. And correct me if I'm wrong poo, she didn't say she didn't want the baby on her lap.

You are entitled to believe that a bundle of cells is a life. Others are entitled to believe otherwise. And btw, not all women who are pro-choice think that a foetus isn't a life. You over simplify and misunderstand at will.

you judge, judge, judge, mrsrigby.

you designate people by name in bold type.

then when they disagree with you and point out discrepencies and hypocrisies in your posts, you tell them they need to calm down.

'expatinscotland a mirena coil would not be my first choice of contraceptive, it's not as reliable as other forms of contraceptive ie. condom and pill.'

it is more effective than female sterilisation. there are quite a few people who cannot take the pill, particularly as they age and approach menopause, due to health conditions like hypertension or diabetes, and quite a few more from whom it has adverse side effects.

this plus the high effectiveness is why the mirena is often recommended, by doctors to women who would like a form of reliable contraception but can't take combined hormonal contraception.

and i echo what pooexplosions has written. you have repeatedly labelled women who fall pregnant without wanting it stupid slags by re-iterating that it never happened to you because of 'using your brain' or 'not sleeping around'.

those are judgemental statements no matter how you try to disguise them.

that doesn't mean posters who point that out need to calm down, and if you feel personally got at, then maybe you should think about what you post before you press the post message button if you're not willing to discuss your views point for point without resorting to weak cries of being bullied or got at.

Excuse me? I have 3 beautiful children, and they are all very much wanted. One or 2 of them may have been unplanned, but they were never unwanted.

I can look into my babies eyes and see that life is important (not sacred, I'm not religious) Because he has eyes. He is a living breathing born person, not a collection of cells that may or may not turn into a person.

I don't expect you or anyone to agree with me, but that is my belief, shared by many people, and you have no right to denigrate me the way that you have.

And you certainly have no right to speak about my child in that way.

'A very close friend of mine fell pregnant not once but twice this way, each time she 'chose' to have an abortion, it was no choice really as her 'DP' put so much pressure on her to go through with it. Guess what, she had a complete mental breakdown a year later and has never recovered. '

then the blame for that lies with her partner, not with the fact that abortion is safe and legal in this country for all women.